Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE 5.05 Buying Curriculum vs. Writing Your Own: Part 1 with Anne Wilson and Mikey Sackrider
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What if the fastest route to a healthier youth ministry isn’t writing more, but shepherding more? We sit down with Anne Wilson, Next Gen Pastor at Traders Point Christian Church, to learn the value of buying curriculum, then spending your reclaimed hours pastoring students and training volunteers. Anne shares a practical, month-ahead workflow for taking a solid, gospel-centered series from download to stage—assigning a rotating editor, contextualizing scripts, upgrading small group questions, and leaving room for the Holy Spirit to lead. The payoff is tangible: more time in schools and FCA, stronger leader prep, and holy moments like spontaneous baptisms when hearts are ready.
We also pull back the curtain on CIY MOVE's upcoming Kingdom Workers theme. Think Ephesians with a bright, surreal visual world and a reimagined response element that nods to the past without living in it. The film project with a new mission partner threads beautifully through the theme, showing students how vocation and calling intersect in ordinary life. Ephesians 2:10 anchors the message: you are God’s handiwork, sent to make everyday spaces sacred—classrooms, shops, studios, and sidelines.
If you’ve wrestled with the stigma of “selling out” by purchasing curriculum, Anne offers a reframing that’s both freeing and challenging. Students aren’t grading authorship—they’re aching for truth and presence. Treat curriculum like worship music: sometimes you write for your house; often you lead with faithful songs others composed. The key is stewardship and context, not copy-paste shortcuts. Leave with a clear process you can adopt tomorrow, a vision for sacred work in everyday places, and a renewed conviction that your best creativity might be spent in conversation, not in a document.
Hi, I'm Brad Warren. This is Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Our guest today is Anne Wilson. She is, I'm going to be so honest with you, I don't remember her title, but she leads the next gen team. She is the next gen pastor at Traders Point Christian Church, which has several campuses throughout the Indianapolis area. Anne and I are gonna start off our conversation about uh the pros and cons of of buying andor selling curriculum. She's gonna be kind of presenting the case that buying curriculum has been the best for her in her context at Traders Point. But before we dig into that, I am joined by my good and longtime friend, Mikey Sackrider. Mikey's the director of no. I was wondering where you're going with that. I was really excited about it. Mikey, director of You've been promoted.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, right here.
SPEAKER_02:You're the director of this episode of the podcast. Oh man. All right. Yeah. Mikey is our lead programmer for Move. That is correct. Is that right? Yes. Okay, great.
SPEAKER_04:The director of programming for Move. There you go.
SPEAKER_02:Director.
SPEAKER_04:That's not true. Yes. I am the I am I am uh on our programming team, specifically programming for Move.
SPEAKER_02:Currently working on developing uh your third move tour. Third one. Third move tour. And I wanted to have you on. We always have you on once a year to just kind of talk about. We've had here's the deal, Mikey. We've had a lot of people register for Move. It's a lot. More now than at this point ever before.
SPEAKER_04:It is very exciting, man. It is a lot of so so exciting.
SPEAKER_02:So the people are excited. The people are ready to come to Move. The people want to know. I want to know because I honestly don't really know. Uh kind of what we can be excited about. I know we kind of teased our uh theme of of Kingdom Workers. Yes. Kingdom Workers. And I want to know how we landed on that, why we think it's right for the moment, why you're excited about it, you know? Yeah, why why are we here?
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. Uh yeah, Kingdom Workers uh is gonna be summer of 2026. We're gonna walk through the book of Ephesians. So there's your little Which by the way, long timers. Yes. I was gonna say that. Okay. If you've been around the CIY block a little bit, you know that in 2016, our theme in 2016 was also Kingdom Workers. And so this in some ways is not some ways, that was a silly statement. It is the 10-year anniversary of that Kingdom Worker series. Now, if you also know the history, more of the history, you know that it has not been 10 years since we've started saying Kingdom Workers. It actually started before that with Kingdom Worker cards. However, really that Kingdom Workers uh theme in 2016 kicked off kind of that verbiage and really drove home uh the the definition of what a kingdom worker is. So we just felt like at this time uh in in our in kind of the scope of of programming, it would be a great time for us to come back full circle to that theme and put it back in front of students because uh even 10 years ago, today, 10 years from now, kingdom work is what we are called to, right? As those who follow Jesus, kingdom work is where is where we go, is where Jesus takes us. And that's for all of us. It's the context for everybody. And so, man, we're just so excited to walk through Ephesians to to communicate to a student, you have been created to be a kingdom worker, like God, who in many ways is the original kingdom worker, right? He has created you in such a way, man, that that we are able to have so much influence on the world around us, and we're able to uh bring light into the darkness, you know, all those analogies, but that's that's what we want to communicate to students this summer through Kingdom Workers. Ephesians 2 10 specifically is like the main uh passage of scripture that we're gonna be focusing on.
SPEAKER_02:Are we doing are we doing handiwork or masterpiece?
SPEAKER_04:Uh we are doing hand it's handiwork.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:It is handiwork, yep, and I V. I disagree, but I well, yeah, just we're keeping keeping it consistent with NIV. But both are great. Um both are great. Um yeah, so we're really excited about it. Um we're kind of you know, if you've seen the poster, it's it's very bright. It's kind of like this nature meets surrealism. That's a word that I've heard thrown around uh in our meetings as we talk about look and feel. So kind of like this uh, I don't know, dreamy. Michael, am I saying this correctly? Dream sort of yeah, it dreamy definitely resonates with me. Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_02:It's an open, yeah. Which I was gonna get at. Like, okay, this is uh uh a concept that has been around for almost 20 years. This is the 10-year anniversary where we're doing the same skeleton of a program that we did 10 years ago, but there's also a lot that is gonna feel like very new and fresh. 100% including like I mean, the look and feel could not be more different. It's from very different to 2016 Kingdom Worker to 2026 Kingdom Worker.
SPEAKER_04:Correct.
SPEAKER_02:Um, programming wise, I mean, we're still gonna be in the book of Ephesians, uh, which is what we did in 2016. Um but what are you excited about? What what life are we excited about kind of breathing into this? Are there any things we're trying? Can you give us a little peek behind the curtain? And I'll say that knowing we are very early. Yes. So it is process.
SPEAKER_04:Sure, that is correct. Um, yeah, so I just want to kind of double back on that a little bit. Yes, correct. It is the same uh skeleton, if you will, but we took that skeleton. And if you were, if you were a part of the 2016 theme and if you remember it really, really well, um, you will notice some some differences. You know, we took it, and obviously through the context of 2026, a lot happens in 10 years. And so we as a team, you know, read through the 2016 theme guide, is what we call it, and we prayed over it. And so there are some subtle changes in that, but generally it's it is very much the same as we walk through Ephesians. Yeah, I'm excited. Um, man, I think I think what I'm most excited about is for students to see that um in whatever context they find themselves in today or in the future, God is calling them to make things sacred. I'll say that word, to make things, you know, holy in their context, right? And I I think one of the things that I'm particularly excited about is for a student who's sitting in their seat and they know maybe they're maybe they're about to graduate and they know that they're gonna take over their dad's business. I'm just throwing out an example, or they're gonna go work as an elementary school teacher, right? Coming off of this week a move, one of my goals, one of my hopes is that they'd walk away thinking, like, man, I can't wait for that opportunity, whether it's being a teacher or taking over my dad's mechanic shop and making that a sanctuary for God's presence, right? For for people to experience God and to interact with God and to see that he is good and that he cares for them as well. Um, you know, I'm also excited to see, too, kind of paired with that, we had a great response to uh vocational ministry students being called into that last summer. I believe that God's gonna continue that. I think we're we're gonna continue to trend that direction of students feeling called to ministry. And so we'll obviously um have that as a part of our our week as well. But overall, whether it's vocational ministry or it's you know an elementary school teacher, God is calling you, He's equipped you to create this sacred space of ministry wherever you go. Like it, it's it's all around you all the time. Uh, it is everything. So I hope that answers your question. But I am excited about that.
SPEAKER_02:It uh it doesn't, but you know, it's awesome. No, it's so good. It's like, I don't know how you cannot be fired up about that. You know, it's like I can almost understand hearing like some of the it's like, oh, Book of Daniel, okay, we just did that, you know. Yeah, like kind of not being so so pumped, but like there's no reason not to just be absolutely fired up about spending a week telling your kids that they are priests of the most high God, no matter where they go. Yeah, that rocks.
SPEAKER_04:It's really cool. It's gonna be so cool.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I need that reminder, you know? Yeah, I always wonder how our program is gonna hit adult leaders. Yeah, like this past year, it was so cool how many how many adults who came as volunteers with their youth group took batons.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, crazy made decisions, yeah. It is really, really cool.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and even hearing you say this, I'm like, it's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, yeah, because you got you got group leaders from all over in a different context, taking off work, yeah, right. And and it's like, okay, how how am I gonna go home and go back? Right. I'm glad you brought that up. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_02:But even them, like, I don't know why we're talking about adults, nobody cares about adults, but that's not true. Even them, like many of them have the mentality that like I'm taking a week off of work to go do ministry at move. Right. You know what I mean? Like, this is my ministry, and I am taking PTO in order to come do this. Yeah. And like that mentality is a mentality that I have at times. And just being able to speak to that and say because I often think that the the students who are there with adults who are also on the journey with them are the ones who stand to gain the most from an experience at Move. I don't know if you agree with that or not, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, I do. I do. And I and I again I'm glad I'm so thankful. I mean, it's all it's all Ephesians, right? It's it's it's God's word. But I'm just so excited for a student again to walk away and and leaders to walk away. Like, man, everywhere I step, everywhere I go, it's it's it's just an opportunity for ministry. And so, dude, it's gonna be so fun.
SPEAKER_02:Shoo! That's gonna be good. I'm so glad. I got a shit out of Brad. That's a good thing. Uh that's probably never happened before. I don't know. Uh okay, but is there like one little thing you can tell us? Is there like a- Oh, are you asking for like a specific, but I'm just like, can can you like can you, you know? Oh man. Show one card in your hand, not the whole hand. Just like we're excited about this.
SPEAKER_04:Are you talking about, I mean, like a film project? Are you talking about response element? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Let me say two, let me say two things. So one thing is uh if you were part of 2016, I feel like I keep saying that, there was a response element with a butterfly that I feel like was really cool, really powerful. We are we're doing a version of it uh with a little bit of like a like a spin or a twist. And so you'll you'll see that it's on the poster, so maybe that's not really it comes as a big surprise. Oh, there is a butterfly in the poster. There is a butterfly in the poster. Um it's the whole week. Just let me just say this the whole week is not gonna be butterfly week. Okay, that is one uh one place of imagery uh of many that we'll be using throughout the week. So I just want to say that uh to get that out there. But um, yes, I'm very excited about that. Um I would say, man, film project-wise, uh really excited about our um the mission partner that we're partnering with, Kunmis Manos. Um, are you gonna have a podcast about that? I hope I don't ruin it.
SPEAKER_02:There's not a podcast about that, but our next episode, we're gonna dig into that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Well, I won't say too much about it, but there's a film project attached to it that's that's gonna that's gonna um, as we've been walking further into what that film project's going to be, uh it it's taking it has taken a different shape for the better, and it's amazing how it parallels with the theme of Ephesians. It even all of us in the room are just like, God is so cool how this story of um, you know, it's the the person who started Konami Spawns, how how this person and their life lines up with Ephesians so well. So I think students are gonna connect with it far more than just a mission partner, but as a uh really a thread for kingdom work uh as far as a theme goes throughout the week. Um there there's other things too. I don't want to say too much.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, I'm not asking for too much. You that was great. I know the game you played. That was just enough to get me like jazz. That's you know the game I play. I could just walk into your office and ask you. That is true. You should. You should um I wanted the people to be able to participate.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I get it, man. It is it's gonna be so exciting.
SPEAKER_02:So um This is a very special time for me right now that we're getting ready to do because um we have a new segment on the podcast called Mike'ed Up, which is where Mike gets to talk about anything he wants to talk about, but you're also kind of Mike. Yeah, no one calls you that. We need a guest on Mike'd Up? So it's like t Mike Mike's up? Mike Mike's up, Mike's up, maybe that's so stupid. All right, Michael, save me for myself.
SPEAKER_03:Um, okay. A couple of weeks ago, I saw something in the news a couple of weeks ago as of the time of recording. We're recording on October the 23rd. Okay. I saw something in the news that just really lifted my spirits. What? Yeah, and this is something coming out of California, which makes the second time I've talked about California on Mic's Up with Mike. Big fan of Cali. He's he likes California drivers. It's true. I like California drivers.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Um is that sarcasm or is that true? Oh, that's true. Oh, that's true.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, listen to the podcast, Mikey. Okay. Yes, kids. I've been listening to Narnia Audiobooks. That's all I've been listening to, so I'm so sorry. Yeah. Um, anyway, uh Governor Gavin Newsom, think what you want. Doesn't matter to me. Uh, but he rolled out a new law that will take effect in I think July of 2026 banning in the state of California commercials on streaming services that are louder than the show. Wow. How do they monitor that? How did I mean as a sound guy, is that um, I mean, I there well there are there are ways. Um it's complicated, and we're not gonna worry about getting into the details of how that works better.
SPEAKER_02:Do they so they are doing that intentionally?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I had no idea. I thought it was just like the what so I actually looked this up before deciding to talk about it. Um apparently there's actually a law that was rolled out in 2010 um that that was the same ban but for commercials on broadcast and network television.
SPEAKER_04:They were doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_03:Because it's so annoying. Making it louder so that you hear it. I like what I think so that it just like the louder I yell steals your attention away. Like it.
SPEAKER_04:No, but what it does is you end up turning it down and then it goes back to your regular show, and then you have to turn it back up. Yeah, dude, I don't want to do that. So dumb. It is interesting. That's what we're spending our time solving. I'm fine with it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh no, I I I wish the rest of the country would follow suit. Maybe they will.
SPEAKER_02:Meanwhile, a hurricane is getting ready to hit the Atlantic coast and FEMA is.
SPEAKER_04:That's what I was saying.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_03:Um terrible feelings.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, but what can you do?
SPEAKER_03:But those commercials, man, they're pretty loud. And I know a lot of people have a lot of feelings about the you know, the number of laws that California has and the things you have to pay attention to. I'm on board with that one. You know what? You know what? So many of these laws that I think I've seen in California are really just about the people. You know?
SPEAKER_02:You know what I can't wait to do? Go to California and watch a new girl on a just pick something and watch it. Oh man. Interesting. Yeah. You know who's gonna hate that as streaming companies because people are gonna be less inclined to pay for the non-ad supported version of it.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that would be interesting. Because that's part of the annoyance of ads to me. Yeah. Is just like the I actually like an ad break. Yeah. I like getting up, refilling my water, peeing, doing whatever I gotta do. I always mute them, but it's the screaming that I yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, that is good news, Peikel. Yep. You have lifted my spirits.
SPEAKER_04:Man, good.
SPEAKER_03:I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_04:And it's like audio adjacent, which is your world. What a what a great find of a story. Thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh wow. Okay, that's great. I love that so much. And I cannot think of possibly a better way to go into our conversation with Anne than feeling just this amount of joy. So let's go talk to Anne. Let's go talk to Anne. Let's do it. Anne, I'm so glad that you're here. Board member, youth pastor, mother, extraordinaire, social media star. I don't know. I'm just making stuff up now. Um, but you are one of my favorite, uh, favorite next gen voices in the whole wide world. And I'm grateful that you're here with us today to talk about curriculum, everybody's favorite topic of conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can't wait.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I hear you have dinner parties all the time and bring people over and just yap about curriculum.
SPEAKER_00:I do, but now that you've introduced me as a social media star, I should say I am not Ann Wilson who writes songs. So some people might be confused right now. I'm not a country artist. I'm just a youth pastor. So Anne Wilson.
SPEAKER_02:Country artist, or wasn't Ann Wilson one of the sisters in Heart too?
SPEAKER_00:She was. So depending on the era of person I'm talking to, they either say, Oh, Ann Wilson from Heart, or now it's like Ann Wilson from K-Love. I actually had a student come to me with Ann Wilson's book last summer to get me to sign it. And I had to say that is on me.
SPEAKER_04:I was hoping you did.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't. I didn't want to be dishonest. Yeah. You would have made that kid's day.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's why I put my maiden name in my Instagram. Too much info, sorry. Because I kept getting tagged in her tour update.
SPEAKER_04:And then that's really fun.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You should just put curriculum Anne Wilson. Curriculum Ann Wilson.
SPEAKER_00:Great.
SPEAKER_02:Um, can you really quick before we get started, just hit one of those heart notes for us just to Okay, all right, great. We'll move on then. Um Mikey probably could. Mikey pretty pretty pretty talented singer.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know what a heart note is. I just knew she was in heart.
SPEAKER_02:You don't know any heart songs?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_04:Sorry, man. I only listen to Ann Wilson.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, love Ann Wilson. Yeah. Or Traders Point, Ann Wilson. Okay, here we go. I only listen to this Ann Wilson. We're gonna talk to this Anne Wilson about curriculum. Um, so here's here's we did have a conversation before the conversation that led to me kind of starting here. I will warn the listener, but this is where I want to start. You um you came on staff at Traders Point originally in the communications department, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_02:Am I right about that? Okay. And your job was what?
SPEAKER_00:Content writer.
SPEAKER_02:Content writer. So you are we're we're coming to this conversation about purchasing curriculum from the uh lens that you are a gifted writer. I don't know if you would say that about yourself, I'm gonna say that about you. That you're very good at writing, that you could sit down and write an incredible curriculum, um, that maybe that's even something that might bring you joy at certain seasons or times in your life. Um so why what did it take for you to get from that place of like I'm a person who creates content to a place of okay, for the good of my ministry, for the good of the next gen ministry at Traders Point, we need to purchase curriculum.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So before I joined Traders Point staff, I had been a youth pastor before that. And I had done some writing for curriculum companies, like on the side, and so kind of got to see behind the scenes of how curriculum is created and be like a contract writer for that. Before that, I did an internship, which really um formed the way I think about curriculum. My boss at the time was actually a very gifted writer, but he was very passionate about curriculum and taught me all the things about curriculum at the time, which I won't say the year, but it was a while ago. And the reason why he was so passionate about it, I would say, is still carried with me now, which is it's really about stewardship of time. And as a content writer, when that was my job, obviously that's what I did. But right now I'm an ex-gen pastor and I oversee kids and youth pastors. And with them, I want to help them steward their time the best, which is to shepherd people, to lead their volunteers and to be able to create like a great experience where students and kids can encounter God and follow Jesus. And so for us, that has meant that the writing of curriculum content from scratch is not our number one priority when we can find really solid stuff that other people in the kingdom create. So I see curriculum as more of like a kingdom partnership thing than we are outsourcing our creativity or that we're like abandoning originality. Um, I think curriculum helps you start at 60 to 70 percent. You can use your creative gifts and context to edit and change based on your own ministry, but you're not starting at zero. And so I think for me it's more, way more about stewardship of time and resources than anything else. That's not that it's not about other things, but that's like the top of the list for me.
SPEAKER_02:So I know a lot of youth pastors who part of the uh appeal of uh youth ministry or part of the reason that they believe that they are gifted for youth ministry is a creative spirit. So I'm glad that you like indicated that. Mikey even I think of as like obviously a highly, highly creative person, was a great youth pastor. So how do you reconcile all of that? You know what I mean? Like, do you feel like you're you're taking something away from yourself, or how you know what I mean? Like, I'm not a creative person, so it's hard for me to put language to that, but like what is how does that weigh?
SPEAKER_00:You're creative. We're all we're all creative in different ways, but that's very sweet. I would say no, it is just true, but um sweet.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:With that said, I think a lot of youth pastors that I've talked about this with feel like curriculum takes away their like creative agency or their originality. And it's really funny, like when you have this conversation in kids' ministry land versus youth ministry, it's like two very different conversations. Um in general, most kids' ministry um people rely on curriculum so that they can do their job. Like they wouldn't be able to get their job done if they didn't have that. And so I think when I turn that on its head, it's like, why isn't that true about youth ministry? And I would just say, it probably is. You just probably don't know there are things that you're not getting done because you're spending so much time in content creation. And with students who live largely in a content creation land, um like they can access content at any time. The unique thing that the church provides is relationship and discipleship. And so I would just say, like, if for me, there's so much creativity that you can exercise in all kinds of places, not just content writing. But then also I would say, like, I don't think it's a one size fits all. Like just because we create, or just because we purchase curriculum and utilize that, it doesn't mean that there aren't things that we create on our own. So, for example, like we do youth events throughout the year, and largely those are written. This year, we have adapted something actually from CIY. Thank you guys. Um, but um, we've purchased it, we're not stealing anything. But um I purchased it off your resources page. But, anyways, um, but normally that would be from zero percent.resources.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, but but the reason I did that was again a stewardship time. Like we are in a season of some staff transition. And normally what we would have been able to throw toward that event and that like content creation, we weren't able to. And so it's like we were about to start pouring so much time into that when I'm like looking up and I'm like, we have so many people to lead. Like, we do not, this is not where our time can go. I think what's hard is that you don't often know that you're really not tending to people until they all start falling apart, you know? And so um I think it's easy to maybe miss what you are not tending to by pouring all your creative energy. So I say all that to say that doesn't mean that there aren't times that we start from zero or that we might have a series once in a while that we do totally on our own. Um, but every single month or year long, that's not what we do. So there are times and there are seasons or there are weeks maybe where it's necessary to do that. And I just don't think it's for us been a healthy choice to say we are going to, we have something uniquely special to say every single week. We cannot rely on any other voices, like it's just us. You can hear my little soapbox, I guess, coming out there.
SPEAKER_02:Um that's what a podcast is, so it's fine.
SPEAKER_00:I just think at times thinking in a youth ministry context where you are a youth pastor, you don't have this huge creative team. And I've been in a small church and a large church. So, like I've done both ends of it. And now, in even in a larger church, I think the mistake is to think like, well, we just can have all these resources. Let's just hire tons and tons and tons of central staff so we don't have to do this. When you could be prioritizing those stewardship dollars and staff dollars toward people to shepherd people.
SPEAKER_02:Um, that's really interesting. I want to key in on that for a second.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Because you were talking about stewardship of time and the immediate thought that popped into my head, and I was asking actually planning on asking you about this, and you've kind of beat me to it a little bit. The the thought that popped into my head is that you work at a church, and this is a little bit crass, and I apologize, but we're we're just gonna go for it. You work at a church where you could advocate to your bosses for having more dollars to hire more staff to write curriculum and not take away any of the time that your current staff is spending relationally and still be able to like do the to do the work of of writing the curriculum. But you're saying like no, if those dollars were actually available, I would want to actually double down on the relational impact that we're making rather than write curriculum. Am I kind of like reading that right?
SPEAKER_00:You are, and I don't know if that's too candid to say, but because again, if somebody's made a different choice, I'm not like this is me. No, we're talking about traders going to be decided.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But for for us and this house, um, we have decided, but I think I think of this similarly to like worship music, right? Like there are times that our team has written their own song, but it's not every song of every week. They sing songs and lead people in worship that other people have written. If we were to say no, we only sing songs that we have written, that we have come up with, that's the only way we can worship God. Like, I guess I don't know how curriculum's any different. And yeah, we could hire this huge central staff and I could advocate for that. I've seen a huge need on a campus side for right now more than ever, like people to be shepherded really well. Not that they didn't need to before, but I'm in charge of right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so if I'm gonna advocate for more staff, I'm gonna, I wanna do it at the campus level. That doesn't mean that there aren't central positions that are needed and we have central teams. It's not like I'm the only one. Like I've got an incredible central team that I serve with for both kids and youth ministry and in kids, there's a way bigger need. And like, you know, so like that's not to say that that's not needed. It's just that if we're gonna add more and and I found a curriculum company that I trust and that I have a partnership with and can give feedback to, and we edit stuff, but the amount of time we spend on that is so much less than we would if we were starting at zero percent, both from graphics, yeah, video scripts, small groups. Like we contextualize that. And we even, you know, because we use CIY's app convos, and I'm I promise I'm not trying to be an ad right now. We just do do that.
SPEAKER_02:CIY.com.com slash convos.
SPEAKER_00:For our context, we take small group, you know, stuff and we rethink it in the format of what convos would be. It's not like our curriculum company knows about combos and uses convos, or you guys all work together. It's like that's where we have to use our brains. So we do spend some time. Yeah. Um, but it's just so much less than what we would at 0%.
SPEAKER_04:One thing I would love to kind of go further in, you'd mentioned uh obviously how it allows you guys to be creative in maybe other ways. Like it kind of pours out into the way you guys do groups and discipleship. Um, I it'd be cool to hear like a specific example. Like, what's something that maybe recently or in the past couple years that like you and your team have been able to do from the uh discipleship side of things or even like the small Group side of things where you where you saw that creative creativity sort of flowing into those areas instead because you now had more time to do that.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's really, really good. Well, I'll say one thing that I love is that I do feel like our youth pastors um have margin to be really involved in school communities. And so our, I'm specifically right now thinking of our Plainfield youth pastor. It's a part of his weekly rhythm to go to either an FCA or he's also the chaplain of the football team there at the high school. And let's say that's 10 hours of his week on a like really heavy week, maybe five, you know. But what he's doing there is like engaging with probably at least 100 students that don't go to our church or that he's invited to church that wouldn't he would never meet if he was spending even those five hours in content writing. Um, but it frees up again, time, like a stewardship of his time. That's not necessarily creativity, but he but he preaches his own stuff there or something that he's adapted from our midweek programming and makes it into, you know, like a 10-minute devo or something. Um, and then a really practical example was a few a couple of years ago, as we were growing in CIY, like attendance and what we were taking, we were in this weird place of um like not big enough for our own private week and also not small enough that we didn't, we needed something to have our own like group identity where students like came together as a campus, where they like had something that they all rallied around. And so we were like, we need a creative solution for that problem. What do we do? So we created two things, and one of those was like what we called big team battle, where everybody had, I mean, it's just like classic like 90s youth group, but remade, you know, but everybody had a color they wore, flags they created. We did a big shark tank where every team came with a world, mascots, and like two games that they pitched, and then we all voted on that. Um, and that's a ton of creative time and energy, but it was like, okay, the game has to involve 300 people. Um, and it needs to have minimal props so that we don't have to take a ton of like stupid stuff. And it needs to have a mascot world. So it was like one of them was like Willy Wonka, one of them was like space rats. Like, I mean, you know, just like all kinds of weird stuff. And then the other thing we needed was like, we need something at the end of the night, basically that's an announcement time for students to know what to expect tomorrow for us for Traders Point students, and to tell them to like take their meds if they have nighttime meds. And it's like we had a really basic thing we needed, but instead it was like, well, let's create a little 90-night 15-minute program. And we had our safety director then read a kid's bedtime story and we started filming him. And students love it so much, like love it. Like they stand up and cheer at the end. It's the weirdest of my life. Listen, I think it could work, I think it could work other places. Okay. Um, but and it's not that big of it's but we have them carry their big team battle flag and we announce like where the scores are, and then we give them an update for tomorrow, like logistics, and then they end with a bedtime story, and then we give like an award, whatever. All those things, it's like we wouldn't have had the margin to create that thought-wise or time-wise, if every week I was asking or we were asking them to spend at least 10 to 15 hours in sermon prep, and you know, like they just wouldn't have that. And then also, I mean, get involved in schools, like when, get involved in the community when. So to me and for us, I would rather have the margin for that and then us spend depending on that youth pastor's gifts, like 20 to 40 percent of their energy on weekly content than 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I want to ask you about two pain points, two common pain points that I hear with buying curriculum. Um, there's a ton of great children's ministry curriculum out there, and a lot of very, very mediocre youth ministry curriculum out there. What is your true true or false? What what how what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think that that is largely probably true. I think it's getting better. Um in terms of there being a ton of options, like I think in kids' ministry, there's definitely more options and more people from an education background that are in kids' ministry, so that think in the lens of like scope and sequence and three-year learning journeys and you know, all that stuff. Um, not that it's not true in youth ministry, I just think it's more common in kids. But I would say I have had a really great experience with curriculum. And when it's a mediocre message, it's on me to make it great. Like, yeah, I'm not like, oh, this thing stinks, like this is all trash. Like it's like, well, you know, like make it better.
SPEAKER_02:Like, um But you might spend four hours doing that as opposed to 15 if you Right.
SPEAKER_00:So when I hear people say, like, well, we're gonna so this is what I hear people say that kind of always just makes me pause. But people are like, well, we're gonna spend time on it anyway, let's just do it ourselves. Like, you're gonna spend 20 hours on it versus two. Like, yes, you're gonna spend time because you still are the overseer of that ministry and have a responsibility and a stewardship of what they hear and the content that they consume. But if you find somebody that you trust that is gospel-centered, that teaches the Bible and helps students know Jesus deeply, then why not partner up with them from a kingdom perspective? And like, and then yeah, there will be some weeks that are like, oh, that was just okay. So make it a little bit better. Like, spend some of your brain time on that, and maybe that week you spend more time than you would normally.
SPEAKER_02:But so you're saying I was just saying. Sorry, I thought you were kind of done there. But uh you're saying like even a mediocre youth ministry curriculum, and I don't hear you saying that the curriculum that you are using is mediocre, but even a mediocre youth ministry curriculum actually helps you achieve some of the goals that you're trying to achieve.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. That doesn't mean I think you should just settle. Settle, but I I feel really good about the curriculum we're using. And and then when our youth pastors will say, like, oh, this message was kind of weak, it's like, okay, well then let's make it better. Um and so far, I mean, we've had great series this fall. Our series this fall started with friendship, and then in August was about faith and science. And I mean, we it was so good. And we have, and I will say too, like, as in a multi-site context, we still have our youth pastors speak into them and edit them. Like it's not like they just get something they have to do. Um, there's a different editor on each week to make sure like a real person that is with our students every week is looking through it and gives their like editing notes and all of that. Um, and then it's up to the youth pastor at their own campus to contextualize. So, a great example of this. Uh, probably a month ago in our faith in science series, actually, at the very end, our um one of our youth pastors really wanted to add in a call to baptism. And it wasn't in the script, but really was just listening to the Holy Spirit's leading. And he's like, I think my students are ready for this. And six students that night made the decision to get baptized and then were baptized the next week with our church. And so again, it's like I think people think if they use curriculum too, it like cuts out the power of the Holy Spirit or the voice of God and what he can do. And it's like, no, it just makes you prepared and open so that you're not just thinking about the content that you wrote or the sentence that you love to say, but like I think it actually in some ways, for some people, frees them up to listen to the Holy Spirit in their context and not in the, you know, but like listen to the Holy Spirit, think about their context, shift things around. I mean, the reason I love curriculum is the same reason I take students to CIY and don't create my own camp. Um, because I trust you guys.
SPEAKER_02:I trust CI.com slash move, CIY.com slash mix. All the plugs, man.
SPEAKER_00:Sound crazy. I'm glad I don't have like a CIY hat on, I guess. But if if if a youth pastor takes students to camp and trusts you all with that, I would just ask them why not the same kind of posture toward curriculum. There are probably things about CIY programming that a youth pastor doesn't feel 100% about every time. Well, of course you don't, because your context, you know your context better than anything. So in the areas where you need to supplement or change something, do that. And where you don't, like it's all right, it's all good. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I would love to know. You kind of just mentioned it briefly, but specifically from download to stage, right? If we're talking about like a sermon series, yeah, what is that process? I know you just kind of mentioned a little bit, somebody who looks at it and edits it. Um, I just think for some people that might be helpful instead of just I downloaded this, you know, the morning of and now we're gonna try it, you know. I don't know if someone's actually doing that, but what is that process in the timeline?
SPEAKER_02:Like if we're starting a series on January 5th, when am I you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yep. So in general, with the curriculum that we use, which is through Amazing Life, we work, and there are others too. Like we used Grow, we've used um Gospel Project, like we've used all of them. Right now, we are really like loving what we're using, but we'll work like in general a month ahead. And so for so right now there's a team that's working on what it's October, it's working on December. November is done. But I'll speak to two different. So when I was a single youth pastor, no, I'm married. When I was like a solo youth pastor, I was married then too. Sorry, when I was a solo youth pastor, I'll share about that and then also in a multi-site context with like a bigger team. Cause I think you can do it in both. When I was a solo youth pastor, I would work ahead a month too. And most curriculums at least have a month ahead, if not a whole semester ahead. Um, and they'll usually give you a scope and sequence for the year so you can kind of see or move series around where it makes sense for you. So they'll give you like, here's what the year is gonna look like, and then here's the downloads for everything, usually like quarter at a time. So in August, let's say I was by myself as a solo youth pastor, like I would download everything that was available, but then I would work a month ahead. So I would try to have August done in July, but I would download week by week. And in the series we use, they write full scripts, which I really prefer because that's been really helpful for our team. And then what I literally do, now this is just my process that might not be helpful for other people, but I will pull it up right here and I will pull up like a blank word doc on the other side, and I will look through and make notes of things that might need to look a little bit different for our context, or like delete this, change this, and then I'll go and do that. Um, and then our small group content, if I was again so by myself, I would do the same thing, look through, probably add some stuff, just because I've always small group content, I do think is like the weaker part usually of a curriculum. That's just been true of everything.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's the that's the that's where the contextualization rubber meets the road, right? Is like in that context. So that makes total sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and now I will say, like, I can use AI to help me with that to think of better small group questions or like look at this script, give me some more. Even if it's like I need more meat to this, like I'll and then I use my own human discernment, as we always should, and like flesh out a little bit more small group content. And then even for like leader notes or any of that, like I'll finalize all that then. So I usually create like two documents. One is like small group content and leader notes is one, and then the other is a script. And then usually with that also comes graphics, slides, like all that stuff. I'll try to do a whole series at a time with everything. And I try for me to do all that work usually in like one or two days, um, which sounds like a lot, but for me, it's like if I can focus on it all at one time, it's just it's probably how you guys create content too, right? It's like if you do one hour per day, you're fastic.
SPEAKER_02:Um, not having to like jump in and out of that headspace over and over and over and over and over again is probably helpful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And the editing, and I am thankful that I had the experience I did in mark in marketing and communications before because I usually was editing content in addition to writing content. And they're two totally different skill sets. I don't think I can do this just because I had that though. Like, I think any youth pastor can do this. Um, and you can use AI to your advantage with human discernment and like your gospel biblical lens. Um, as a disclaimer, nobody gets scared. But like you can use AI to your advantage to help you out with that. So I'll do all of that, and then I'll usually try to work a month ahead. So our editing schedule. So that was what I would do by myself. And then with our team right now, what we've done is basically a different youth pastor at a different campus does that, everything I just said, for a series. So everybody is in charge of something and speaks into at least one series. And then they will go over that with our team a month ahead. So we'll do like a content overview in one of our youth team meetings where they're talking about the series, what's coming up, some tips for your group leaders, anything that they need to know of like, hey, you need this Jenga set in Teach Three. You need um, you know, whatever props you need to get ahead of time. We try to do that. And again, I think, oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Uh well, I was just gonna say, like in the multi-site context, let's say Mikey is editing this month that we're currently working on, and I'm a youth pastor at another campus who's not editing this particular series. I'm not getting the raw files at all. I'm getting whatever Mikey has edited down and created. That's what is passed along to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you can like all of our youth pastors have logins. They can go see it themselves if they want, but what's in our SharePoint like folder of midweek?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, why would they go back to the right to the raw stuff? It's like I trust this member of my team, and he's already, you know, given me.
SPEAKER_00:He's already looked through it with a campus lens, and we've already and then I our youth lead too looks over all of it as like a final set of eyes. But um, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's cool.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. Is that two in the weeds? I mean, it's probably boring, but that's just what we do.
SPEAKER_04:That's really interesting. I think it it helps people, you know, in their context if they do uh purchase curriculum too. So have you ever because I do know one thing, you kind of talked about this sometimes. You get in a position where uh, or someone maybe who you know writes their own curriculum would say, Well, what if, you know, you know, what if we want our students like we feel like they need to know this very specific thing? Like we're in this season where like this topic is or this scripture is, you know what I mean? Have you guys experienced that where, you know, I think you mentioned this earlier, where you can kind of like go out of that lane and and write your own thing and and what maybe caused that? You know, how what was that process like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, so yeah, we've done that before. And even when our um whole church was in a like um generosity initiative for two, we it's we've been in it for two years. It's called Awaken. But when we started that, we all kids and all youth and adults all did it at the same time. And so we did take a break. We were doing something a little bit different then, but we created our own awaken series in youth. And I would say if we were doing that all over again, we could do the exact same thing. We're doing something a little bit different in kids' ministry, even in December, or we're joining our church and doing at the movies. So we're doing at the movies in kids. So we are not using Amazing Life's December content. We're creating our own for that month in kids. So yeah, I mean, I think it's totally fine. That's why it's like it doesn't have to be 12 months, but if it's 11 or 10, that gets you pretty far. And then you can use that creative energy you have for that one month or that one topic. You really feel like we need to talk about this with our students. You can still do that without throwing the whole thing out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so yeah, if we needed to do that, we absolutely would. And there'll be times we will. But I will say one thing that I love about our curriculum right now is they have these one-off weeks that are like hot topics, basically. So, like, I'm pretty sure last month or this month, there'll be one about substance abuse, and then there's one about coping that we did the month before that, and they're continuing to come out with more and more of those. So they're even kind of catching on to like, hey, I think youth pastors need some specific things that can pull out to address a certain issue or conversation students are having. Um so yeah, I would just say, yeah, go ahead and do that. And you don't have to then do that the whole year, probably. Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Quick uh super in the weeds question about what you just said. Um so we're taking off the month of December to do out the movies. Do you have the like obviously you feel that from a uh uh staffing and a ministry scope perspective, you have the flexibility to do that. Does the the company that you buy your curriculum from, Amazing Life, do they give you the flexibility to do that as well? Like, are you having to pay for December and just shelving it or do you not? I'm curious about that. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But I will say in comparison to what creating your own curriculum costs, and I know because we've been down that road, it's pretty minimal to have a December wash than a whole year of creating your own. So, yes, we pay for a year of content. So we'll have a month of December that we don't use. What we're gonna do is pick the very best week of December and use that for our Christmas Eve services. Um, and then for July, we'll do something pretty similar too. And it's like, all right, we're gonna shelve that. Maybe we could use it for kids' camp. Like, are there other ways that we can utilize this content? Or it's like, we didn't really like that month, so let's do a different month here. So yeah, I think you can still be creative because you're still the overseer and you can move that stuff around um within the tools that you use.
SPEAKER_02:So totally. Mikey, you are a very gifted. Do you like that? I did like that. You are a very gifted uh youth pastor and also a gifted worship leader. I want to jump way back in our conversation to Ann's comparison of this to like the idea of worship music, because I thought that was really fascinating. Yeah. Um, and just kind of uh pick your brain on that a little bit and see like as a worship pastor, do you see those as as like kind of living in the same world? Because I do think that that is a really, really interesting comparison. And how does that like make you think about all of this?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, oh, absolutely. Yeah, I've never heard that before either. So that that kind of raised an antenna for me too. Like, oh yeah, like that that is really true. Never thought about that way. Yeah, I mean, I think I think there's there's certainly there's certainly so much great space for a worship leader or worship team to say, hey, we're gonna write this song, you know, similar to like the month of December for you guys. We just feel like this month, or you know, in this case, this song is it was placed on the heart of one of our team members or worship leaders, and they wrote this song, and we just feel like it really connects to our our church. I think there's so much beauty in that, so much power. I think there's a lot of unity that comes from that too, to say, like, oh, this is our church's song. This is super cool. But I also do think, too, you know, when there are so many talented musicians and worship teams across the country, or across the world, actually, for that matter, who are writing music as well, you know, through the Holy Spirit's um direction that churches can use. Now, I will say, within the worship world, I don't know how this connects with curriculum. I think it I think it connects in the in the sense of what we're talking about with like editing even curriculum that you download. But like if you are trying to be a different church's worship team, like I think that's where it can get a little like, oh, we're just gonna do the song because this is what all the big you know worship bands are doing or whatever, and for getting sort of to think through the lens of our church and our community, just because this song is popular, um, is this what our church needs right now? I think that might be something that's a little bit maybe unique in that sense. But no, I I really think that's an interesting connection and anal uh or uh you know connection to me made between curriculum and and that. But um I think there's certainly side sides for both. I do think uh, you know, if if you do write all your own music, that's super cool. I'm glad you do that. But I do think there might be a point where um, you know, you might be you might be missing out. You might be missing out on some some really, really rad, you know, worship songs that you know that other churches or other groups have written.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, it's that's where I would just oh go ahead. Nope.
SPEAKER_00:I would just say that's where context really matters a ton and staff stewardship resources and all of that. And so that's where I think calling in the conversation. I mean, it sounds weird probably to say like calling is a part of a curriculum conversation, but I do think it is of if you are called to be a pastor and a shepherd, um that isn't the same as being called to be a content writer. And so if you really feel this burden for content writing, I would ask then what that means for how you use your gifts professionally and what might be people missing if you're spending all of your time there. And that doesn't mean that like there's not a place for that. Like I think there is, and in our context, um, because it is a larger church, we have a music director who is the one who is thinking about all those different things, and our worship pastors are leading out at campuses and not thinking about those things, you know, like and that's but I would say when I was in a smaller church, if our worship pastor was writing his own stuff all the time, I can't even imagine how much the people would have missed out on leadership and shepherding and pastoral care and helping come alongside them to teach them instruments, you know. I mean, so I do think your calling really matters in this conversation too. And if you do have a significant burden to be a content writer, I I just would ask is being a youth pastor what you should be doing?
SPEAKER_02:Like, um uncomfortable, but a good question to ask. Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_00:Um not not that you can't do both. Okay. I'm not trying to be extreme, but like, can you do content writing in your social media or or once every six months or editing sermons so that they like, you know, are your voice and your style, like, or writing your own book, or you know, I mean, I think there are other ways you can do that, and just making sure you don't neglect the people in front of you. I guess so. I'm saying I'm not saying you can't be a youth pastor and be a writer. Okay, I'm not saying that. Obviously, like I love both things, um, but I I just know there'd be some things missing if that's where I poured all my energy into.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I do like to kind of put a bow on this, and then I I I want to ask you one last question here, but I do think that what both of you just said almost makes the relation because uh people are obviously more comfortable singing other people's songs in church than purchasing curriculum. A higher percentage of churches do one than the other, right? And I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, Ann, so I'm gonna pose this as a question, but I I I I think I hear you saying that if someone were to do the curriculum version of what Mikey is talking about, try to be another church's worship uh team, and you saying, well, that's what makes context so important. The curriculum version of that being, well, I'm just gonna download this and preach it as is. I'm not gonna edit the small group questions, I'm gonna throw these into my youth leaders' hands and we're just gonna run with this. Uh would you say that that's kind of a a misuse of yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. I think and I don't think any curriculum curriculum creator is offended that we are doing that. Like I think they are expecting us to contextualize.
SPEAKER_02:Well, most of them, most of them send you Word docs, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, they send that so that we can edit it and they would expect that. And I would say you are neglecting your responsibility if you're just copying and pasting and not thinking through what you're putting in front of people. So I'm not saying like abandon your mind and don't think about anything you're doing. Like, no, absolutely you should. I just think you can start at probably 60 to 70 percent instead of zero. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I'm gonna ask one more question. You got anything else? Uh just one more thought in that.
SPEAKER_04:Sorry, real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just one more, one more thought that I had. I think too, as we talk about stewardship, right? Obviously, the platform, the stage platform is a great responsibility, right? What comes off of the stage, our platforms and our ministries really can build culture. They can all sorts of things. We know that. And so I'm just another thought that I had is I think sometimes we can fall into a trap. I say we as in in student ministry or even just church world, that uh to make what happens on stage the most in important thing. We've already kind of said this in other ways, but really when you look at like small groups and discipleship and time with students, I mean, that is where that's where it happens, right? We see this at move, right? At a week a move. Um, obviously we pray over and really think hard about what comes off of our stage of our platform, but we also recognize that really the the greatest work uh that we see in a week a move is what happens in the youth group time and it happens in small group time. And so I think just in general, in this conversation, just a reminder for everybody listening who has, you know, has both time on stage and time with students, man, that time with students off the stage is so incredibly valuable. And um, man, whatever way, practically this week, whoever's listening to this that you can pour into that, please do because it is just vital. And students are longing for those really healthy relationships with a mentor. So just wanted to say that.
SPEAKER_00:I completely agree, Mikey. I love the way you said that. And I think what you just said is what's at risk of getting missed when all of a youth pastor's time goes toward creating their own content.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So um last little thing here, and we've gotten right to the end of when I promised you our our our time would uh end. And uh I want to give you a chance to uh encourage kind of a specific youth pastor, because I imagine that there is probably more than one youth pastor listening to this podcast who is listening to you and saying, Yes, good point, yes, good point, yes, I hear you, yes, good point. But just like there's there's a a a a stigma with purchasing curriculum at times, I feel like, where you're you're you're it feels like you are giving something up in order in order to to purchase curriculum or it feels like you're kind of selling out, you know. Um I have talked to people who kind of have that thought, have that mentality. Um I'm not asking you to convince anybody to buy curriculum. I'm sure people who write their curriculum, you know, have come to that conclusion thoughtfully. But I am asking you, like, okay, maybe there's a youth pastor who this is the right thing for, but they haven't taken that step because they have a bad vibe about it. And I just kind of want to throw that person in front of you and say, hey, what would you what would you say to this person?
SPEAKER_00:Um that's a really good question. I would ask, who are you afraid of disappointing? Like when you say even they're afraid of selling out, like to who? Because I I can guarantee you students don't know or care. Like students, I'm not trying to be mean. I just if you are right now, like using your gifts and your time and your calling is toward helping young people know and follow Jesus, they are not wondering to themselves has my youth pastor sold out and used other people's content to help teach me the Bible? Um, it's just like not the question they're walking in with on Wednesday or Sunday or Saturday, whenever you have them. They want to hear the truth. They are living in a world that feels really confusing and they need you to give it to them. And they need someone to walk alongside them to help them follow Jesus well. And so what do you need to do to do that and to prioritize them at the front of your decision? And so if your decision making hierarchy is like I want to be cool and have my own content that I put out on social media, then yeah, like you are selling out. If your decision making hierarchy is like what is best for students in my ministry and best for my leaders, I would go there and let the other noise just find its way somewhere else. Um it feels like if I was sitting with that person and I knew them, I think I would dig into the motivation of that question. Yeah. Because we're not recording artists and I don't have a talent agent trying to find me a new church. Like I'm shepherding people, and I want to put my time and resources and creative energy toward that. And one and I sound like I'm like saying the gospel is true only if you use curriculum.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not, I'm not saying that I I do not hear you say that.
SPEAKER_00:But I I just I don't think students care. I just think they they want your presence, they want the truth, um, they want to know that you take them seriously, and so whatever helps you do all of that and more, that's the decision that I would make.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I'm very, very grateful for your thoughtfulness on this issue and really every issue. You just think deeply about things, and I appreciate that about you. I'm thankful for your ministry at Traders Point. I'm thankful for your partnership with CIY. I just think you're great, and thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you guys for having the conversations. I think they're really needed. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02:All right, we'll see you soon. Mikey. Yes, sir. We close out every episode of the show by having our co-host hype up somebody in ministry because they deserve to be hyped up. I understand that you've made a selection. I'm excited to hear you tell us who he is and why you've chosen.
SPEAKER_03:Is this hyped up with Mike?
SPEAKER_02:Hyped Up Hype with Mike. Hype with Mike.
SPEAKER_04:Those don't technically rhyme. Uh man, I'm gonna give a shout out. Okay, go ahead. Hey, I'm shouting out my friend here. Yeah, um, I'm gonna shout out my friend Sam Skaggs, this guy right here, high school pastor at a Harvester Christian church, um, over in St. Charles, uh, which is super fun. And yep. Here, here's why I want to shout out Sam. Uh, I I had the privilege of hanging out with him and his team. Uh, they did a they did a retreat based off of rhythms, okay? Okay, which is super cool. So we did rhythms two years ago. It's uh it's uh trying to walk the pace of Jesus for 21 days. Last year. Uh in last year, yeah. But we we started it two years ago. And so him and his team grabbed hold of that concept and and grabbed hold of that book, and they just did a whole retreat based off of it to to kick it off for their for those students. And so I got to come hang out with them and do that. So that's how we got connected, but then just staying connected, got to hang out with them in Kansas. Sam is just so genuinely um, he genuinely loves the church, loves students so much, and just to see his heart and his passion, um, it it never dwindles. He's just all in all the time and just a joy to talk to. Um, and just cool to see him interacting with students again. He just has a heart for him. And so just want to shout him out. I know last time we talked, he's like, man, I was like, how you doing? He's like, man, I'm so good, but there's just a lot going on. I know a lot of people feel that right now, too. Um, but man, really proud of Sam. Thankful for what you do, bro. And so, man, to everybody, to all the Sam's out there. Pin him to the board for now. Hold on, let me.
SPEAKER_02:It's okay. Do I pin it in his no, not in his head? No, and not in his wife either. Let's just do the sky. Do it. Okay, yep, you did it. All right. Hey, there we go. Sam. Thank you, Sam. Uh, thanks for what you do at Harvester and for the kingdom. Keep up the good work out there. So good. Also want to thank my buddy Mikey and my other buddy, Mike Gole. All the mics for all the mics for a great episode today. I want to thank Ann Wilson for being with us and sharing some of her wisdom. If you liked what you heard, don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We're gonna be back in two weeks to finish up this conversation. We're talking to Mike Branton about why he and his team at Sun Valley Community Church in the Phoenix area choose to write their own curriculum. So it'll be kind of the flip side of this little coin. Uh yeah. See you next time. See you guys.