Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE5.02 Topical vs. Exegetical: Part 2 with Jeremy Stevenson and Caleb DeRoin
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What if the most powerful way to reach today's youth isn't through carefully crafted topical messages, but through teaching them to dig into Scripture verse by verse? Jeremy Stevenson, formations pastor at Christ Church in Jacksonville, believes we're facing a generation hungry for authenticity—one that needs skills to engage with God's Word directly rather than depending on a youth pastor's clever packaging.
In this thought-provoking conversation, Jeremy shares how his student ministry tackles Paul's prison epistles through a series called "Letters from a Cell," creatively connecting ancient texts with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's prison writings while staying firmly rooted in Scripture. Rather than avoiding theological challenges that naturally arise when teaching through books of the Bible, Jeremy's team creates space for deeper dives into topics like predestination and sexuality—discovering that students eagerly stay for these substantive conversations.
The shift to exegetical teaching hasn't dampened creativity or student engagement. Instead, it's transformed how students interact with Scripture and their peers. "They are now equipped to take God's word to their people rather than bringing their people to hear God's word," Jeremy explains, noting how students are increasingly discipling friends rather than merely inviting them to church. By encouraging physical Bibles over screen projections and emphasizing direct textual engagement, Christ Church is equipping students with lifelong skills for spiritual growth.
Before this insightful discussion, we join Caleb DeRoin as he recounts his extraordinary attempt at the punishing Leadville 100 mountain bike race in Colorado—a 105-mile challenge with 12,000 feet of elevation change that defeats over half its participants annually. His riveting story of perseverance through 90 miles of grueling terrain at extreme altitudes offers surprising parallels to our spiritual journey of endurance and commitment.
Whether you're a youth minister questioning your teaching approach or simply curious about effective ways to help young people engage with Scripture, this episode offers fresh perspectives on discipleship that transcends trends and cultivates lasting spiritual formation. Subscribe for our upcoming conversation about integrating students into adult services versus creating student-only spaces!
Hi, I'm Brad Warren. This is Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Our guest today is Jeremy Stevenson. Jeremy is the formations pastor at Christ Church in my hometown of Jacksonville, Florida. Jeremy and I are going to be having part two of our conversation about topical versus exegetical teaching by talking about the exegetical side of things. Before we dig into that, though, quick note this episode is going to feel a little bit different than other episodes. We had some scheduling conflicts, some weird things, so we had to kind of break things up a little bit more than we typically would. So Caleb, who is my co-host, is not going to be joining me for the interview, but we do have a conversation with CIO's director of Mix, Caleb DeRoyne. So we're going to go to that and then you'll hear from Jeremy later. I'm joined by my good friend, my favorite blonde, Caleb Deroyne.
Speaker 2:Here I am. I'm just fired up to be here Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it so much. Caleb, let's talk about your summer pre-Colorado for a second Pre-Colorado. And then I want to talk about Colorado. I'm just how like. You got to go to a bunch of mixes, you got to have a good time, you got to hang out with a lot of cool people. I did what is a standout memory for you from this summer?
Speaker 2:I think for me, my favorite event of the summer had to be we did a new location in Texas this year at Stephen F Austin University In Nacogdoches, Nacognowhere. They can call it Nacognowhere, but there's a Taco Bueno across the street from the dorms in Retro. That's not nothing. I ate it a lot.
Speaker 2:No, it's been a while just with my role. Um, I have to do certain events sometimes and there are certain times that I have to go to certain places, but I got to go to a first year event, which is typically smaller, um, and that was really good. It was. It was fun to see uh mix with just a couple hundred people and getting to know all of the youth pastors by name and like getting coffee with all of them and hanging out with all of them, because I'm not running around and putting out every fire on the world which sometimes seems to be at bigger events, and so that was a really sweet time for me this summer to just really like be at a mix that nothing really crazy happened, we just had a good time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so new location Stephen F Austin University. Yep, are we going back?
Speaker 2:We're so back. Should people go? Absolutely, was it good, was it fun? Yeah, what did you?
Speaker 1:love about mixing.
Speaker 2:Stephen F Austin Um it's June in Texas, yeah, so it was a little hot. It honestly wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The weather ended up being pretty mild. It rained quite a bit. Um, Stephen F Austin, I would say we got there and even learned more of what we could do there in terms of like recreation and some fun stuff that they have on campus.
Speaker 2:Um, their rooms are really really great in terms of like having the event, like the programming side of it, um, and also, yeah, there's just more that we can do on college campuses than we can do on on camp sometimes, and this one is it just feels really safe. Like Nacogdoches is a small town, but the campus was big enough to explore right and so I'm excited.
Speaker 1:It's not like we're having mix at NYUyu or something.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, yeah although mix at nyu oh my gosh me what's good?
Speaker 1:can I direct it? No, absolutely not. I would come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can come uh run slides, uh I would I would do that no, I really think. Uh, I think it was cool. Um, as we, as we continue to grow, finding a new spot in texas just to like help more people be able to experience mix in texas we have so many great churches down there too, so many, so many good churches and it was good like I got to hang out with my boy, richard hamilton yeah, like me and rip got coffee and just like talked about life for a long time and it was just like man.
Speaker 1:It felt good to do that, yeah so well, I'm glad you had a good time there and I'm glad that mix went well there, because that is a uh, a great spot and people who are down there should check it out. So, um, okay, now let's talk about the colorado part of your summer yeah, so last time you're on this podcast, we actually talked a little bit about, yeah, so an exciting thing that you were getting ready to do, yeah, um, which was do the leadville 100 uh bike event yep, what do they call it?
Speaker 1:mb, mtb mountain bike gosh, um, and you were like working hard and preparing for that and got a new bike and the whole thing. So it's happened now. Last week before you right, but which, like before you get into, like your experience. I did a little bit of research about the ledville 100 mtb crazy stuff. Okay, first of all, 12 000 feet, did I read? Is there 12,000 feet of elevation change, yeah, throughout the course of the race yeah.
Speaker 1:It is over 100 miles 105. 105 miles In 2024,. Last year, I believe, only 51% of the people who entered the race finished it. Something like that In 2023, two years ago, 44% of the people that entered the race finished it. It like you signed up to do something impossible, crazy hard I'm super proud of you for even signing up to do it. Tell me about your experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this summer, uh, was one of the more chaotic summers of my entire life. Uh, I either drove to a bunch of events so I could bring my bike, or I brought my bike with me all around the country to get rides in early in the morning before the adult leader meeting, which is just chaos. And so I went out there a couple of weeks ago to try to get acclimated, um, tried to really have myself prepared for what, yeah, you said is just like a really crazy feat of trying to ride your bike at crazy elevation.
Speaker 1:Um, and so not just at crazy elevation, but like um and so not just at crazy elevation, but like through a crazy dynamic of elevation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's based out of leadville, colorado, and if you know anything about it, that is a town that sits it right over 10 000 feet. Um, people shouldn't live there. It's not good for their bodies, science has proven it. Yeah, but they do, and I'm grateful that they do. But, yeah, what is today Today Thursday? Today is Thursday. We did the race Saturday, so five days, a few days ago, yeah, five days ago, at 6.40 in the morning, in Leadville, colorado, I towed the start line and gave it my best shot. How'd it go? Well, for all of those who will listen to this and are just waiting on the edge of their seat, guess what Didn't finish. The goal was to finish. To be completely honest, I had put in a ton of work this summer, um, to finish this thing. Um, and for the first it's even crazy to say it like this for the first 75 miles of this race, I felt like a superhero.
Speaker 1:I feel exhausted after driving 75 miles.
Speaker 2:Um, my nutrition was really really good. Our plan was really really good. Our plan was really really good. My coach and I had made a ton of really good decisions on pacing and everything felt really good. The crux of the race so it's 105 miles, but it's 52 and a half miles out and 52 and a half miles back. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's out and a half miles out and 52, and a half miles back.
Speaker 3:I didn't know that. Yeah, it's out and back.
Speaker 2:The middle of the race, like the middle 14 miles is an up and down from 9,000 feet to 12,500. So it's a 3,500 foot climb, seven-ish miles up, seven-ish miles down. That's the crux of the race, that's the turnaround point. You ride your bike, or walk your bike all the way up to 12, five spot and they're like okay, yeah, there's a little loop. You go, you like hand a bottle and you're like can you refill that with water? And you go around this loop and they're like here's your water. And you're like thanks, um, uh, yeah, above tree line. I wish I think there are a couple of things that I wish like I wish I would've looked around. I didn't, cause I was like oh no, I got to keep going, like let's keep going.
Speaker 1:And also, if I see a single cloud move, I'm going to throw up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am almost on the surface of the sun. Um, and so, yeah, for the first 75 miles felt really really good. Um, there's something that happens when you ride for that long that your mind is just not as sharp, and so I made a pretty big time cuts throughout the whole race.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So at 40 miles you have to make it there by a certain time or you get pulled off the course.
Speaker 1:Got it Like a certain time of day Correct, Like 4 o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 2:Well, you know whatever, yeah, yeah, okay. So from the start line line you have four hours to make it 40 miles okay um, which is still a ton of climbing, a ton of getting there.
Speaker 2:so got the first time cut, felt really good, got there with like 30 something minutes to spare. Then you go do the big climb at the 63 mile cut, have that's another time cut. Then at the 83 mile, there's another time cut. At the 92 mile, there's another time cut, and then obviously you have the finish after the 63.
Speaker 2:But started thinking through where the next cut was, knowing it was at 83 miles, but convincing myself, just while you're alone on the bike with no music because they don't want you to wear headphones, I started thinking it was somewhere else than where it was. And when I pulled up to where this, it was one of the aid stations, so people were there. I had a lady look at me and be like you have 19 minutes till the cut and I was like that was odd that she told me that, because the cuts right here. Why would she tell me? I have like a hundred feet to go. Why would you tell me that? Uh, it turns out it wasn't. It was like six or seven miles away. Um, and so I had 19 minutes to ride, like six miles, six, seven miles, uh, which means I had to just empty everything out, um, and so that 83 mile cut was at four o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 2:We've been writing since 6 40 AM and I, I, yeah, I put every piece of me to make that cut and I made it at like 359, 35, just like so dramatic, yeah, um, but it's a feed station. So I came through, hit the, hit the checkpoint. Um, everyone's like hooping and hollering, but in in my brain I knew I was like I just had to spend every last ounce of energy um to make this cut at 83. And so, um made the 83 point or 83 mile cut felt good, but I knew I was wasted. I knew I was just like completely done.
Speaker 2:Um, but what, what's, what's mean about this course? I don't think there's anything nice about it. Like the whole course is just kind of sinister, um, but like glorious and perfect in every way. Um is. After the 83 mile climb, you climb a mountain called Sugarloaf, um, which the very bottom of it is a section called power line where it tops out at like 25 percent grade so you come out of that station and then it's just like, yeah, you take a little road and then you immediately like look up at this thing.
Speaker 2:You're like okay here we go.
Speaker 2:So I did that, climbed up the whole thing not all on my bike, climbed up. My goal in the steep part was to climb up some of it on my bike and I did, but walked the rest and then you just kind of ride and hike up this. It's three or four miles up to the peak. Uh, during that three or four miles had I had run into leadville search and rescue three different times.
Speaker 2:Um, as the day is starting to wind down and they're, they're starting to sweep the course, just making sure that people aren't out and doing something stupid or kind of get hurt. Uh, the first time they're like you need anything, you need to tow back to town. How you doing? I was walking at that point and I looked at my wall, I looked at like my computer on my bike and I was like technically, the last time cut doesn't happen for another 30 minutes, so you can't disqualify me like yeah, but I was like uh-uh, so I left them for the first time. Second time they came up hey, you need, you need oxygen, you need water, you need us to give you a tow.
Speaker 1:I was like you're like yes, yes, but I'm leaving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like the moment you help me, or like do anything for me, like it's game over, I'm disqualified and I was like no, I don't need anything. They're like are you sure? And I was like dude, I'm fine, let me keep going.
Speaker 2:They gave you a water bottle I think they could have like helped give me water, but I had enough water. Um, all the while, like, obviously, internally, every time I pedal like my legs are cramping, like I'm dying. The third time the I get up and over this mountain, come down the descent, and, um, they are me. They met me on the road and this, this time cut is 10 minutes away or whatever. And they're like okay, dude, they only refer to you as your bib number, so 1607. They're like all right, 1607. We've seen you a couple times, like do you want us to take you back into town? What do you need? Like you have 10 minutes to make this cut. I was like I got 10 minutes to make this cut. It's a five mile, 1500 foot climb. Like there's no way I could do that in 10 minutes. But this was the third time and I was like I think my crew is at the next like aid station. How about I just ride to them? And they just like take me back. I had no idea we have no cell service. I didn't know where my crew was, me back. I had no idea we have no cell service. I didn't know where my crew was, but I just wanted to keep riding. This lady was like 1607. I was like, okay, bye, and I just took off. At that point I get to the last climb and I was just toast. Obviously, no, the time cut I had missed it Ended up going about 90 miles of the 105.
Speaker 2:Um, just over, just over like 12 and a half hours, I think, on the bike. Um, and that's when, um, I'm not going to get emotional about it, but that's when, uh, I saw a car park and and my wife got out and she was the person to meet me and I was in good spirits, like I was bummed, but just told her I was like I mean you gave it.
Speaker 1:I mean, how could you not be? You know it's like I. You know you did something that no one else in this room could do. You know you did something that no one else in this room could do that's not true. You guys could do it, not right now, but if you put time I think I could do it next week. Yeah, don't do it next week. I was like are we going to go now? I would love to give it another shot. You should, That'd be awesome.
Speaker 2:We'll see.
Speaker 1:2026 sounds like a good year to try this crazy thing again I mean, I feel like even yeah, this is a stupid comparison, but it's like I took the act in high school right and then they're like take it again, you'll get a higher score. It's like you don't have to study anymore, but just like knowing what you're walking into like gives you even more of it.
Speaker 2:There's some of that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it's like even just like having done almost all of it. Yeah, I feel like you just conquer the world. Next year, man, go do it. It's the goal. Okay, well, I'm proud of you. It's super cool, man buddy, yeah, um, we have a new segment on this show in place of the mailbag. We don't do the mailbag anymore oh, but we have a segment called mic'd up, which is where mike gets to talk about anything he wants mic'd up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, oh, mic'd up. That's only the second time I've heard him say the name. In our travels, we just get to go to like a variety of places, which is honestly something I think we're quite fortunate to do, and one of the things that I always think is interesting is there are a lot of people who are afraid to drive in Southern California.
Speaker 1:Like our team, doesn't like to drive yeah.
Speaker 4:Which you know if you don't enjoy driving in densely populated areas that have some pretty dense traffic, understandable. Populated areas that have some pretty dense traffic understandable, um, but I have like driven in a lot of different places around the country just because of the different like places that we get to travel for work. Um, and southern california makes so much sense in my brain. Driving around there, um, the interstate system reasonable, the way that people drive out there, predictable, which is like the safest way to drive in my opinion. They still do things like assertively but, um, it's not that bad. You know where I hate driving, oh, joblin no, joblin's fine, but people don't drive very predictably in joblin.
Speaker 4:They don't um more predictable, though, than chicagoland. Chicago area drivers are undoubtedly some of the worst drivers I think I've ever seen. They make aggressive selfish decisions without regard.
Speaker 1:I mean what people on the road, what person when they're driving their car, isn't making selfish decisions? I'd like to think me.
Speaker 4:No, you're all you're looking out for number one. I'm looking out for what other people are doing on the road.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good like like when, michael, you are a better driver than I? Yeah, me too I also learned to drive in florida, though, which is like the place where I mean we also not a great place to drive well, here's the thing about flor You're talking about like things that are reliable and predictable, and everybody, like people from Chicago retire to Florida, but people from New York also retire to Florida, and people from North Carolina retire to Florida, and everybody just brings their crappy driving habits all to the same place.
Speaker 4:It's a traffic rat king. It is a traffic rat king.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is a traffic rat king, yeah, and that is where I learned how to drive, and uh, anyway, I believe you, though I believe you that chicago is terrible. I don't know that. I actually don't know that.
Speaker 4:I've ever driven in chicago it's terrible, I hate it you would, you would legit say over like dfw area yeah, wow, yep d to use.
Speaker 2:I don't love texas drivers texas is a lot of people in and from texas.
Speaker 4:That I love, but but when we're talking about how people from texas drive, is what I'm saying, you know yeah I mean, that's the caveat for chicago area drivers, you know.
Speaker 1:Just want to make sure I'm not saying that I hate people so the point of today's iteration of Mic'd Up is that if you live in the Chicagoland area and you drive a car, get it together for the love. Be better.
Speaker 4:We love you out here, but like we don't love the way you drive, Do better. I don't want to.
Speaker 3:Or get on the orange line.
Speaker 4:That would be, so terrible.
Speaker 1:So the L is great in chicago like driving from the getting from the airport into town and then their public transportation is all great. So next time you go, I like walking around downtown chicago.
Speaker 4:Yeah you know like it's, it's fun, it's a beautiful city, um, but the way that people drive, it's just. But when you know, when I'm in california, I have never struggled to change lanes. I've never, never struggled to like get to where I need to be because when I turn on my blinker, the other drivers will respect that I'm trying to move over. But not in Chicagoland.
Speaker 2:But not in Chicago.
Speaker 4:Man, it's dangerous out there.
Speaker 2:It's a doggy dog world.
Speaker 4:It's a doggy dog world.
Speaker 2:A doggy dog, a doggy dog world.
Speaker 1:Michael, thanks for another successful Mic'd Up. Let's head over to my conversation with Jeremy. Jeremy, it's good to see your face. We got to spend a lot of time together this summer. That was great, and this feels like a reunion. You know, I'm happy to see you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep for sure it's going to be good. So we went to Spain together. We did a move together, we did a mix together. Power rank them. Oh, those three, yeah Well I mean, I want to know definitively like what is the highest of your rad experiences but also your CIY experiences?
Speaker 3:I don't know that just changed the whole. Also, your CIY experiences I don't know that just changed the whole idea with the Brad experiences. Yeah, I definitely think Spain was like I don't know how. I mean Spain's just so intentional and you're so close and I don't know how you could beat that Doing Jesus stuff on a different continent. I don't know. I think that's got to be number one.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool, yeah. And then you were only at like one day of mix.
Speaker 3:So I was about to rank that as the next best Brad experience.
Speaker 1:I deserved that I deserved that.
Speaker 3:What's crazy is, if I had been there, we would have been together, Like you and Noah and a couple other people were, was like what 15 straight days you were together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I flew from Spain to direct mix and flow, which was a mistake.
Speaker 3:Our team was there with you 24 hours later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, which was wild. It was so fun. You have a great team, great things going on there at Christchurch.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to hear a little bit about it and how it plays into this conversation about exegetical teaching. So people have already heard context for you our episode about topical teaching with DJ. It was great, and so we're just going to kind of look at the other side of that coin and say, I mean, it really is as simple. As I sent you a question and I said do you prefer topical or exegetical teaching? You said exegetical. Why was that your answer?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, ok, yeah. So first of all, this is I'll just answer this one briefly here, but it's 2025 and you're usually either all for or all against something and I'm not that like. It's not that I'm anti-topical, I'm just really pro exegetical. So it's not anyway. But I would say in a nutshell your question is why exegetical?
Speaker 3:I think my briefest possible answer that I can go into way more detail my briefest answer would be I just want to get back to doing God's word and one training young people to rely on God's word rather than on the communicator of God's word, and getting them to grow up in a world, in a world where they get to learn how to dig for their own food, so to speak, that they uh don't rely on somebody else to make it catchy or clever or uh find stuff that only fits and only applies to them, but they have to find the truth and uh doing that to get back to God's word. I got a bunch of little reasons why I think it's good for youth pastors specifically and can make their job easier and more effective.
Speaker 1:We'll get into all of that. I'm really you. That is not the direction that I thought you were going to go, interestingly, so I kind of want to. So so you're saying that you feel like topical teaching is more conducive to, like personality driven ministry type of thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's not only yeah, you can like to go to the extreme.
Speaker 3:Yep A, like celebrity pastor, is more likely to be a topical teacher than an exegetical teacher, it's at least a slippery slope, it's at least risky of that and and and you can like topical you can more directly target your audience, which I think would be maybe the best argument for topical teaching is that you can target your audience. But I think the flip side of that coin is that you too much target your audience and you don't give them real the vegetables of the food that they, that they might actually need, that they don't know that they need and it just becomes it's a slippery slope. That would be, that would be mine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I know that you are overseeing a lot of different ministries at Christchurch. Now I want to talk kind of like, if we can hone in specifically on student ministry, where does student ministry start at Christchurch? Like grade wise, sorry.
Speaker 1:No it starts at sixth grade, um. So maybe we can like also leak into that like preteen area as well a little bit Um. But I'm curious how this like plays out as you guys are thinking about. I mean, we're at the fall, you guys are at the beginning of a cycle, um, that's going to last a year in your student ministry. I'm curious how your philosophy practically kind of plays out as you're figuring all of that out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like I can give you an example. So our student team right now is doing Paul's prison letters over the course of a 16. So the whole semester is Paul's prison letters. They're calling it like letters from a cell and so it's like all the what is it I don't even know right now Four or five letters that he- Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, I think.
Speaker 1:Look at that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, uh, that sounds dead on. So is that right I?
Speaker 1:checked out in my brain. Let's go with it, yeah.
Speaker 3:So somebody will correct it Um but uh, yeah but so, yeah, so they uh, they're working through each one of those letters chapter by chapter, verse by verse.
Speaker 3:But they also make it thematic, Like they're actually doing it. They're paralleling Paul's letters from a cell to Dietrich Bonhoeffer's letters from a cell and so, like, each week there's another letter from Bonhoeffer to the church and they're like kind of paralleling that and using some of Bonhoeffer's language to drive whether it's theology, to make it a little bit more modern of an example. So it's not like it's not thematic, but each week they get to dive into a specific text. They get to therefore allow God's words to drive the theme that they're talking about. It forces students to not only get in their Bibles but bring their Bibles, forces them to allow God's word to be what teaches them, what grows them, rather than a youth pastor's catchy phrase. There's never a point where that's kind of the main thread of the text. The main thread of the text is what God is kind of using that for. It allows them to run after hard conversations too. Um, like a couple I know will come up like bigger conversations.
Speaker 1:Uh, they are just like you. You make it. You have it right there to talk about, cause it's like well, this is next.
Speaker 3:So we're talking about like like it forces you as you're reading the text oh, this thing just came up. They had just came up. They did a conversation on predestination because it came up and so like, otherwise, that might be a thing that you well, let's just not read those couple verses. You know, like where Paul addresses whatever. But well now you can't just read over and be like ah, your small group leader will talk about that, you know so.
Speaker 1:I think horrible idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know Right. So so they have like several of these things that they're doing, like these little further conversations on um. That might not even be a part of the message, but come up in the text that they don't want to avoid. So we're going to have a real conversation about this or about this, or in what, uh like, in what context are those conversations happening?
Speaker 3:The team came up with an idea that I was excited about. Like they'll, they'll preach through them. But then also after the small group time, I could explain the setup. But after the small group time they're also providing like an optional hey, do you want to come back and have a further whether it's theological conversation? There's one about sexuality coming up that like it comes up in the text, and they're like, hey, we're going to bring in an expert to dive a little bit deeper into this and, like, the majority of the students stay like because they want to, to dive into that thing.
Speaker 1:So that's cool. Um so like, take a step back in the calendar with me a little bit and you're kind of like landing on this idea of doing the prison epistles, which is great. Um, was that a conversation that started with hey, we really want to hit on these things and this is the place in scripture where they're found. Or was it like we haven't talked about these four books of the Bible in a long time and we're going to do it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say a little bit of both, but more the latter than the first. We are definitely. We're putting on the whiteboard and it's like, okay, we haven't done an Old Testament book in a minute. What are some Old Testament books that and this is where that might come into play what are some that could ring true? They're going to do Esther, I believe, next semester. So, like you know, we purposefully do a gospel like every three years. So like it is way more of a hey, we haven't hit a prophetic kind of text in a minute.
Speaker 3:Let's go back to that, or history books Like um, we haven't done that. Um, one of my favorite ones was was judges, and we did judges for really no, no great reason other than we're like dude, there's some crazy stories and judges and two. You could probably compare it to our world today, but we're just going to go verse by verse through the book of Judges and line it up with modern context. So, yeah, it's definitely more of hey, we just want to do sections of scripture books of the Bible. Where is God leading our team? What's he drawing us to? And then, once we kind of get close, it's like, oh, actually, yeah, we could pull on this thread, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you kind of hit on this a little bit. The argument for topical teaching, I think, in student ministry revolves really around two things. One is these are very specific people living in a very specific time in their life and we want to make sure that we're saying things that resonate with them. But I think the the other side of that coin, of the same coin, is um, there are a lot of people in a lot of contexts that don't see kids consistently and they want to make sure that, like if a student comes one week with a friend and then they don't see that student again for four weeks or six weeks, that it like make sense for them to like be able to like kind of plug it, plug in and whatever and that they're speaking yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, whereas, like, if we're on chapter four of Ephesians, miranda and I walk in like there's a whole bunch of context that I've missed, do you guys?
Speaker 1:I don't know how you would describe your context, honestly. So maybe we need to have that conversation, but are you guys thinking about that at all? Or is that just like? Hey, we know that that's the downside of doing this and we're leaning into it. We're rocking and rolling.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, both of those, but like I, I think I would lean to I'm if we had any conversation about youth ministry at all. I would be long game over short game in like every context.
Speaker 3:That's probably not true, but in a lot of just stick with it, just yeah, that was definitive anyway, um, but like I'm just for the, the, the long game, and I I could, I could make the argument right now the topical in the short term could be the best in like a vacuum for small window of time. Like I could make that case. I think it's more about the spiritual development over the long haul, and so therefore, yes, I do think there is a little bit of a hey, somebody could jump in in the middle and not fully get the context or the depth of what we're looking to Now. I would say, at the same time, I think there's a generation increasingly craving real, authentic. Just tell me what God says, just give me the real thing. And so, actually, while a student might be coming in and they might not, I don't know, yeah, they might be we might be in Ephesians 3 and they missed 1 and 2. And so they might be behind the eight ball a little bit.
Speaker 3:I think students are increasingly just drawn to they dug in yeah, this guy isn't telling me something I want to hear exactly, and it's not even like yeah it's not even like trying to be all trendy and it's not even trying to be like all teenager-y I just made that, that word up, I think but like it's not. It's not necessarily just trying to chase a trend or a fad. Like this felt like the real thing and so I would. I would just desire to elevate that over. Yeah, we might get somebody. 25% of the time, of course, we would do the normal things, and that's where we bring the themes in. One of our, one of our big things is we want to actually say the same thing for 16 straight weeks. We're going to put different lenses on it, but like we want to drive home a big idea for 16 weeks.
Speaker 1:So what can you give? Can you like speak about what that actually is right now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so well, I mentioned judges. Let me give you that one. So, in the letters from a cell, our team is kind of just into that and so we're still kind of drawing out some of those themes. I think if our team was on this call, I think they could tell you what it already is. But judges easy example. I just know this one like the back of my hand.
Speaker 3:There's a phrase in judges that pops up I don't know four or five, maybe six times. Uh, that basically talks about in those days, israel had no King, and so everybody did as they saw fit. That's like the phrase. And it's like when you remove the King off his throne, then everybody does whatever the heck they want to do. And where does that end?
Speaker 3:Judges ends in pain, suffering, destruction. Every single time the throne, it all, falls apart. That, like Jesus, is the linchpin of our lives. And when you take him off the throne of your life, it goes through this cycle and judges of, of, of falling, and then repentance, and then Jesus restores, and then we get comfortable and we fall, and then we repent, and so that was like a thread that we pulled on every single week. So even if you were there only, let's say, four of the 16, you were still four times, you got the heartbeat of the book of Judges. And so I know, in Letters of a Cell right now, they're doing that with suffering and they're talking about how we suffer well, for the sake of the gospel, and they're pulling on major threads that we drive home for a long period of time, which, like what speaks better to life in our world today. They're pulling on major threads that we drive home for for a long period of time which, like what?
Speaker 1:what speaks better to life in our world today? You know what I mean. Like it almost circles back around to like accomplishing some of the same wins that topical accomplishes, but yeah but it's not.
Speaker 3:And again, this is where I would just say but it doesn't to a teenager, it doesn't feel like a youth pastor came up with something that applies to their world. It is God's word that is the same yesterday, today and forever. That is driving the truth that I am consuming and being transformed by. So I think that's an important distinction that's an important distinction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny because, like, I have a group of freshman guys that I lead, that people who listen to this podcast faithful, you're tired of hearing about. But um, they are like I I might've said this before on the on the podcast but um, they, if I can get them to like do their most authentic laugh, they've lost. You know, like they don't want to betray any kind of like emotion Like they, they like me and I think they like being around me, but they're still very much like I want to make sure that you know that you're not clever Right, which is good, you know, it's good for me. They're very dry and it's very funny, but it's like that same principle almost kind of applies to what you're saying, where it's like I don't want to be influenced.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I just want whatever is true. You know, I just want whatever is true, you know.
Speaker 3:And I just think how, if, if we could instill that when they're 12, 15, 17, like, how does that change their spiritual growth going forward, like into adulthood? Yeah, how does it change the way they engage with the church in in college? How does it? And change the way they engage with god's word as they grow and as they develop? And so I think again, that's part of the long game of we're training them to seek God's truth in the right ways, in the right times, from the right sources.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of subtle underlying underlying, yeah, um, so this is when you, when you think about like scope, you kind of talked about like all right, we're gonna do this because we haven't done this in a while, we're gonna do this because we haven't done this in a while. Is there any kind of at christ church, like if a kid goes from sixth grade through 12th grade, like they're going to get everything, or is it a little bit more like yeah, I don't know how to ask it in a way that's not incriminating.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that is a for Christ Church. That is a work in progress. That is a thing that we dream of long-term. Our kids ministry has that. They, they do um, they're the curriculum they use is the Bible all the way through in three years. So they literally rinse and repeat every three years and they just keep going um, every every three years through the through the thing and students, we have just kind of overlaid a couple big things that we want to be true, like gospel, every three years.
Speaker 3:What are we doing next semester? They have like the previous five semesters or whatever it might be on the board behind it so that they can see hey, we've kind of been missing this, this, this kind of thing. That's how we ended up doing a. We did a series called summer in the Psalms because we just had missed that like thread of of scripture, and so we, we dream of having a larger hey, let's do old, new, old new gospel, whatever it might be. But I don't think we we haven't gotten there yet and we've kind of just kind of been relying on hey, let's look at what the gaps we've missed and let's give students the scope of scripture so that they can see the thread of God's redemptive plan for creation over the whole thing, Through all of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. But also, like I mean, if you get a kid that comes up in sixth grade that's been in elementary for a while, they like already have the foundation. Yep, I mean if they, if they do kindergarten through fifth grade, they're going all the way through twice. Yeah.
Speaker 3:My, so my, my daughter, we, uh, my daughter is in first grade, one of my daughters in first grade. He was at a COI move with me this this summer and happened to be there the day that they got kingdom worker cards and she asked if she could get one and I was like uh, dude, that means I gotta do whatever you know, it's like when your kid asked if they can get a dog and say we've done this Anyway.
Speaker 3:So she got a cool one. She got one that was like going a prayer walk with 10 different people or whatever, and we had been talking about prayer walking because of Spain and doing all that as a part of and get that engaged trip and and all that, and so it was awesome. Well, uh, she asked if we could go on a prayer walk the other. The other night we are praying. As we're walking, a mom with a holding a baby walks by us and she is praying out loud, like a loud enough that I'm uncomfortable, you know, like, like. This is great. I admire your confidence.
Speaker 1:But yes, like how? How do I?
Speaker 3:tell her don't pray so loud, anyway, you don't he's praying for you, right, I didn't he's praying for this lady.
Speaker 3:we're walking by and she says I just pray that this baby wouldn't be like mephibosheth. And I was like like who? And she said Mephibosheth. And I was like are you saying Mephibosheth thought about Mephibosheth in 15 years? So like I don't know. But she was praying that he wouldn't be crippled, that this man was just like where did you? And she was like we were talking about it at church and about how, about how David wanted to honor Jonathan and I was like cool team.
Speaker 3:Cause you just remembered more of the story than I did, so that's incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I do want to kind of go back to the context thing because, um, I'm from Jacksonville. Jacksonville is a city with an identity crisis in a lot of ways. It's like are we Southern?
Speaker 2:Yeah, are we Florida.
Speaker 3:Georgia.
Speaker 1:Are we crackheads? I don't know, um, but it's like, yeah, I mean when I was growing up there, which obviously it's been years and years and years, but like we used to call it Southeast Georgia, which is like well, that's how you kind of referred to it as like this is super. I don't know if you feel like you're doing ministry in like a Bible belty culture. I like how does that feel to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say. Well, I mean, I grew up in the Midwest, so like, Evansville, Indiana.
Speaker 1:I know let's go now.
Speaker 3:So, like we were, we were churched to the core.
Speaker 3:You know, and I do think there's it's not to that extent here, but I definitely think in our context we do have a lot of people that are a part of our church, with deep church backgrounds, like that is a normally true thing. Um, I think the thing that we continue to stumble on is that they are theologically illiterate in a lot of sense that they are um, not uh, they. They have been going to church and they've been around God's word, but maybe they have never dug into it for themselves. That they are just kind of, and so like that would play into my case for this exegetical kind of style of hey, the, the, the gospel will transform your life, Um, but it's as you dig into the words of God. It's not just attending church in and of itself that is going to transform, um, you into the image of Christ. Uh, it's actually going to be digging in and other things as well, but, um, by way of his word and and knowing what he has called us to, that's going to be the engine behind that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so do you feel like um a major, like, help me break down your student ministry for me. What percent do you feel like, hey, they are faithful members of this church. They've been around for a long time. What percentage are you seeing on any given Sunday afternoon or evening that are like the one-offs came with a friend you know like help me understand what the room looks like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say I would say 60, 70, 75% are somewhat churched.
Speaker 3:The the thing that we have seen actually in our, in our push of of getting students back into God's word and letting that transform and then like joining Jesus on mission um, has been a push that they are more the drivers of students who are outside of that realm.
Speaker 3:That they are actually not bringing more I almost said the language they're bringing their friends. I wouldn't say that's the case. I would actually say they're discipling their friends, that they are now equipped to take God's word to their people rather than bringing their people to hear God's word. And so, like we're actually there's increasingly more students that are not as church, that are from different backgrounds, that are showing up because somebody has already led them to Jesus, not because someone brought them to be led to Jesus. So it's pretty cool that that's been a fun thing, but like as a whole I would say we're talking 75% of them are from some kind of a church background or we have a private school. So we have 300 middle school and high school students on our campus every day. So like we also have a good number of Christian private school kids that are getting chapels.
Speaker 1:The worst kids in the world. Sometimes, yeah, I'm just kidding no, the worst kids in the world are the homeschoolers.
Speaker 3:They're the worst, oh trash.
Speaker 1:Man you are just firing today. That was just a shot directly across the bow toward Michael. That wasn't for anybody else, that was just me making fun of Michael.
Speaker 3:Where did you, did you grow up? In public school, private school? What'd you do me? Yeah, yeah, I. Well, I was homeschooled through third grade and then I was so glad you said that. Well, I could tell by the way he reacted that I was like there was some homeschooling I couldn't read, so my mom was like I don't want him to be held back for six years, so we need to teach him how to read. And then yeah, Also another.
Speaker 1:Well, just a fun kind of juxtaposition on the podcast here. Jeremy Michael has 11 siblings that were all homeschooled. Yeah, so Jeremy is an only child.
Speaker 3:That's yeah, I'm an only child. Yeah, so you basically had your own university and we can read. Yeah, oh man, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:That's funny.
Speaker 3:I learned how to memorize cause I couldn't read, so that was my, that was my default. There you go, that works, that's great. Um learned how to memorize because I couldn't read.
Speaker 1:So that was my, that was my default.
Speaker 3:There you go, that works, that's great yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, that was incredible, michael, props to you, uh, okay. So, uh, I do, I do kind of want to. I mean, I want to be respectful of your time. We don't need to sit here and talk forever. But I want to dig into to one more kind of little thing here. Um, that's based on something that you said that I'm now going to have to try really hard to remember. Um, oh, so, exegetical teaching. Um, it sounds like within that, I want you to clarify something for me. You talk a lot about how you're teaching people how to read the Bible.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Does that happen? Is that a byproduct of just teaching the way that you are teaching, or are you actually incorporating like, hey, this is how we got here into the whole thing as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're definitely. I do think it could be a subtle byproduct, even if you weren't doing that intentionally, like I think it could be. But we are definitely incorporating that into, like we little things One on social media and all other platforms.
Speaker 3:We're encouraging students that they would read the text before they come themselves to um. We are pushing like old school, like it's 1994, that they bring their Bibles and those that don't. We have Bibles at the door, so we don't. We don't have to say, put it up on the screen. We say open up your Bible to whatever that we are. That their eyes would go to the text and not necessarily to a screen or to a voice on a stage. When they get back to their small group rooms, they do small groups with Bibles open and again the Bible continues to be the teacher that it continues to be the thing that is leading them back towards the truth. Sometimes our team does weekly devos that could be a section to zero in on a little bit more. So I don't know if that directly answers your question, but we are definitely trying to purposefully teach them how to engage with God's word, not just from hearing from a stage, but how it can be actively a part of all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that does partially answer my question. I want to ask a different way, though. To what extent are you like showing your work? You know like are, are. Do your kids? Are they learning about commentaries and word studies?
Speaker 2:Like are those things that?
Speaker 1:are incorporated, or does that all kind of happen beneath the surface, on the iceberg, so to speak?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question and I think it happens more organically. I would love to say I'm a guy that likes to have a play written and we run the play and I love to think through all the X's and O's, right, I don't think this is one that we necessarily think through, but I think happens naturally out of the depth of our own digging into and then that overflows in the way that we teach. So, like a easy example would be, our team loves to randomly show a Bible project video in in the middle of a here, a here's how Paul wrote Ephesians. So here's this one minute clip that like informs you on how we got to this big idea.
Speaker 3:Or frequently, like one of our youth pastors he's a little bit more of a nerd than me Like he loves to do the hey, this Greek word, and I looked that up in this commentary and this means that thing. And so, like teaching them how to look under the look under the hood, maybe a little bit of scripture as well. So I do think that stuff happens more organically when you're doing exegetical Um, but I would love to say that we have a plan to reveal that stuff and maybe, under the hood to use your language more than we do. But I do think it happens consistently, organically, just by the model of, of exegetical teaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'm trying to listen to this conversation. I'm trying to listen to you critically, Like I'm trying to find the holes a little bit. So forgive me for peeling back like a layer that this is a half-baked thing, but I do wonder if somebody could listen to this and think, man, if I implemented this, like at my church, I feel like student ministry could start to feel very, um, like I could, I could lose a sense of relationship, Like it's very school-y. You know like we're very heavy on like education, theological literacy, and I just want to give you a chance to speak to that um because I know from being around your group that like they are very deeply connected and in community.
Speaker 1:So just kind of speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I would, I would, yeah.
Speaker 3:First of all, I could make all the normal arguments here of that that that it actually breeds more conversation, it breeds more community, it breeds more togetherness.
Speaker 3:I could do all that, but I would also, I think, one key point to me in all this if I was talking to a youth pastor, I would say this doesn't kill your creativity, it doesn't kill your, it actually grows it. It doesn't hinder your ability to be engaging or even bring topical elements into it. Like, like, you can continue to theme up whatever passage you're digging into. Like you can, you can build a whole experience kind of around the thing that can be engaging, uh, for students that they want to be a part of that. That might, uh, get their brains to say, oh, this is cool. Uh, I want to hear what we have to say about whatever it might be. Um, it doesn't mean that you just have to say like, okay, so we're doing a study on Exodus the end like, yeah, like, open your Bibles, let's go, like there's still room for yeah, there, there can be a thematic way that you bring that home, that that draws them into.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I've never like looked at it through that light. We did. We did Joseph one time. Oh man, I've never like looked at it through that light. We did, we did Joseph one time. And instead of saying we're studying the end of Genesis, we we said but God, you know like this thing is going to happen in your life, but God will use it, turn it into bring flowers out of out of graves, kind of kind of language and so like the whole series is titled but God, and that became like the language. It wasn't like. We never even actually said we're doing Genesis, chapters 30. What is it? 36 through 50 or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like we never like use that language, it was just like we made it thematic, we and so like I think that's what I would say Like it doesn't have to be black. This like dry, like eating crackers every day, yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, no, that totally makes sense. So, um, well, I I think that we've given people a lot to chew on here and uh really appreciate you taking the time to hang out with me and uh and talk through some of this stuff. I love how deeply you've thought about all of this and obviously this is coming from a place of. Well, I'll just tell people, like, I asked you to do this yesterday, like, there was no preparation.
Speaker 1:This is all just like flowing from a place of passion and care, and that's a really of passion and care, yeah, and that's that's a really neat thing to see. So, yeah, yeah, thanks for being with me, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it. This is an awesome conversation, so if you ever want to do this for like 10 hours, I'm in for that too.
Speaker 1:So sign me up. Let's get on a plane and go back to Spain.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:See ya, bye. Okay, caleb, we have a new way that we're closing out episodes.
Speaker 2:I can't wait.
Speaker 1:We don't have a name for this segment yet. Oh my gosh, we're letting the listeners decide, really, yes, but we do have this board, whoa look at that board. And I want you to hype up a youth pastor, and I know that you've brought a picture to add to the board. Oh, that's. Ad the lane hyped up, Addy, which is super cool, yeah. So here's your pin. And why don't you tell us what's going on over here?
Speaker 2:Okay, I have somebody to hype up. Okay, for the second time. Number two yeah, I'm going to hype up Walter Schoen from Tulsa, oklahoma.
Speaker 1:I love Walter.
Speaker 2:Some about Walter Tulsa, oklahoma. I love Walter. Some about Walter. There's a couple of things, but he's going to go right here, I'm not going to stick a pin in his head. A couple of things. So I think Walter's a really great youth pastor from the Tulsa area Actually just moved churches this summer, but just the way that he, that he loves his family, well, um, a little bit about Walter and what his family is going through there. Their son has been battling cancer for a number of years, um, and has spent a good amount of time in Memphis at St Jude, um, and, to be completely honest, the way that Walter is a dad to his son and a husband to his wife is something I look up to a whole lot. The joy that he still has in the midst of really tough moments and just the way that he cares deeply for the Lord is really great. Also, he's an Oklahoma Sooner fan. So Boomer Sooner, walter, you got that on the board. It's absolute. Put those guns away, absolutely not them.
Speaker 1:Walter was in my wilderness group.
Speaker 2:I love Walter a whole lot and he is just a real treasure. A treasure.
Speaker 1:So anytime I can shout out, Walter.
Speaker 2:I absolutely will shout him out. I love that.
Speaker 1:All right, thanks, caleb. Quick reminder if you have a good story about CIY or about youth ministry that you think would be encouraging to our listeners, you can type it out. You can send it to podcast at ciycom. I'll read it on air as written. So huge thank you to Jeremy and to Caleb for joining me today. Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, lauren Bryan and myself. Two weeks from now, we are going to begin a new conversation about whether we should be integrating students into our kind of adult services and into normal church life or be emphasizing creating student-only spaces. So we're going to be talking to Tito Lozano about creating intentional student-only spaces. If you don't want to miss that, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.