Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE4.13 Yes, we are talking about mental health again! with Jordan Francis and Logan Sperry
Mailbag questions or topic suggestions? Text us!
When a student confides they've been self-harming, what's your role as a youth pastor? Where does spiritual care end and professional intervention begin? Licensed counselor and youth pastor Jordan Francis unveils the complex reality of youth mental health today, offering wisdom that both relieves and challenges ministry leaders.
Jordan discusses how today's students are learning the world is evil at much younger ages through constant digital exposure. This early disillusionment drives them into technological escapism, creating a dangerous cycle of disconnection from their bodies, emotions, and the natural world God created. The conversation explores how youth readily adopt mental health labels found online, using them as identity markers without understanding their true meaning.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is the practical guidance for youth workers. Jordan outlines exactly how to respond when serious mental health issues arise—involving parents while giving students agency in the process. He challenges conventional youth ministry approaches, suggesting we've replicated the world's frenetic pace when students actually need spaces of slowness and authentic connection.
Most powerfully, Jordan reframes spiritual disciplines as mental health support. Prayer, scripture study, and contemplation expand what he calls the "window of tolerance"—our capacity to cope with life's challenges. This episode provides a comprehensive roadmap for youth ministers seeking to support students' mental wellbeing while maintaining appropriate boundaries and pointing them toward the healing power of Christ.
Here are some of the resources Jordan recommends:
- The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution by Carl R. Trueman
- Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do about It by David Zahl
- The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt
There are also several resources available through Jordan's company, Reframe Youth, that touch on issues of mental health:
Last, but certainly not least, check out RLTK wherever you listen to podcasts!
Hi, I'm Brad Warren. This is Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. We are going to have a very, very important conversation today about mental health in students Maybe not something that they're thinking a lot about, maybe not something that you're thinking a lot about, but something that is definitely present and, um, definitely something that is important and worthy of our time. And to help us out, uh, as we kind of explore that topic, uh, we're going to bring in Jordan Francis, who is maybe the most qualified person in the world, uh, to have this conversation. Maybe the most qualified person in the world to have this conversation.
Speaker 1:Jordan, among other things, he's the host of the RLTK podcast, real Talk, which is from Reframe Youth, a company that he founded and runs that specifically works with kind of curriculum that's driven towards an urban audience. Those are all the things he does that don't really relate to what we're talking about today. What does is that he is both a youth pastor he's a volunteer youth pastor at Revive Church in Arlington, texas and is a licensed professional counselor. So he is a mental health expert, he is a youth ministry expert and is just a great guy who I think is going to have a lot of really important and insightful things to say to us about how we engage with students as they navigate mental health issues in their own lives. Before we get to that conversation, though, logan's here. Hi, logan Hi.
Speaker 2:Hey, so glad to be here. I really you know long time listener, first time call-in first, first time long time.
Speaker 1:Who? Yeah, it's, it's just a treat to have you here. Uh, here's the deal. Normally I'm gonna say like 90 of the time our co-host is somebody who works in programming. Yeah, the classics, the classics, right caleb lane.
Speaker 2:We love them. We love them. And you were like let's ground somebody off the street. You found me.
Speaker 1:Well, actually someone canceled and you were the no. That actually no, no, no, no, no. Um couldn't get jason, so you asked me. I wanted to have you on this podcast because you represent a part of our building that hasn't really gotten a chance to be here before, and that part is the part. So, like our programmers, our lat leads, they're thinking a lot about creating good experiences for you and your students, either at Superstar during the spring or with Move, mix and Engage during the summers. But there's a whole part of our building, the church relations team, and we don't think about that. We think about you. Youth pastor Logan spends all day, every day, thinking about how CIY can serve youth pastors, while that is his job.
Speaker 1:That is yeah, and so it's a little bit of a different perspective. Yeah, and I wanted to know. So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit and ask you a question that I hope will be an encouragement to our listeners, to youth pastors who are listening to this, which is, you work with and talk to hundreds of churches, uh, throughout the course of a year, and I want to know just what is encouraging to you about the church, right?
Speaker 2:now. Oh man, what is encouraging to me about the church right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um man, I think um told you I was putting you on the spot. Yeah, you did, you put me on, I really did. I uh okay. So I I think the thing right now that, um, I have, uh, just in in very, just, in very recent conversations, gotten to have and see is, I think some of this might even be a little bit of a response, just post-COVID.
Speaker 2:Listen, COVID was tough on everybody and was just like a really hard time, especially maybe pertinent to this conversation that we're having with Jordan later on mental health and the implications of a time like that. Then on mental health and seeing kind of what's come from that Like was a what I would deem maybe a negative time of like man, like things that were hard were amplified because of COVID and things like that. And I think we've switched into now like the church's response and specifically like youth and children's pastors response post-COVID is you are seeing people the people that I talk to are passionate and care a lot about their ministries and specifically the people that make up their ministries the students, the kids. They want to be there, they're driven to be there, they're passionate to be there, Right? That doesn't mean that it's not difficult at times, that it's not hard, that you don't have days where you're like, maybe I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, I think that's natural, yeah, but like the majority, I think, right coming out of a time like that, then, to like really be reinvigorated, maybe in a way of like how lucky we are to get to meet in person, minister to students and kids, to take them out for lunch, to take them to camps and, and uh, pastor them. Um, I just am continuously encouraged by people being passionate about the ministry of Jesus and getting to be his hands and feet.
Speaker 1:So that's, I'm really interesting. That is is going to cause me to go off on a little tangent here. Um, talked about the days where youth pastors like maybe I don't want to do this anymore which, every youth you were in ministry every pastor, scratch, youth pastor, everybody who works in churches is going to have those days, and I want to just talk about that for a second because I don't think we acknowledge enough that, like there is an enemy and he doesn't want you doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, there's like we don't talk about that enough.
Speaker 1:Of course you're going to have bad ministry days. You know what I mean. There are, like forces that are actively fighting against you being effective at your job no doubt Crazy. So let's talk to that youth pastor for a second, because we talked to those too, right? Yeah, we talked to those people when they're having bad days and that sucks. Yeah, it's really not fun. It's really a horrible thing. And I want to just kind of like say the thing that I'm encouraged about is I also feel like post-COVID, we're seeing a lot more longevity. It feels like there's less turnover in ministry than before, and maybe that's just a perception thing, maybe that's not real. I have no idea.
Speaker 4:To be honest, but I'll pull the data yeah, can you run a report for me real quick, michael? Yeah, yeah totally um.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't know, I don't know why I said that. Like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know why I said that like ministry's hard and I'm encouraged that people are like digging their heels in and sticking it out. But also I want you to know that, like, we love you and know that it's really difficult too yeah, it can absolutely be difficult.
Speaker 2:And in those times where, where you feel like quitting, I think the temptation at times can be like am I good enough? Am I meant for this? Am I all of these things? And to ask these internal questions and the truth is like, no, you aren't good enough, absolutely not. No, if we were all to stand right on our own accolades and whatever, we're not good enough. And it's by the grace of Jesus that we have a purpose, that we have kingdom work to do, and so what we truly all need is just more of the gospel. And so in those days when you are feeling that, look to the gospel, look to what Jesus has done and how he's redeemed, restored, justified you. He's called you innocent, he has made you innocent, he took you out of that courtroom and now you stand in grace.
Speaker 1:Are you reading anything that talks about that?
Speaker 2:I am, I am, I'm influenced. Right now I'm influenced. Sorry, brad and I are reading the same book Together, but it's just like that is. I say all that because it's front of mind.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's so pertinent to this conversation, but it is huge of right.
Speaker 2:You're not good enough, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:Like you're definitely not justified by what you accomplish between eight and five when you're sitting in your office.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not. It, yep, it's.
Speaker 2:God in you, it's right. It's God using you right it. It's God using you right. It's the power of the Holy Spirit in you, and so how am I going to lean on him?
Speaker 1:Good stuff, all right. Well, we love you and if it's a hard ministry season or day or year or career for you right now, we're praying for you and also we just like, want to chat with you and talk to you, and so reach out, see how I, you know it might chat with you and talk to you. So reach out, see how I, you know it might be Logan you get a hold of, it might be me, it might be someone else, but we would love to help you out however we can through all of that. Okay, we're going to shift gears Hard left. Turn to Michael. What time is it, michael?
Speaker 3:I think it's time for the mailbag.
Speaker 1:Wrong. It's a good guess though.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:I'm kidding, it's time for the mailbag. Yeah, mailbag time. Guess what? Logan Youth pastors asked us questions and now we're going to ask them to you. All right, hope you don't mess up, do it. All right, you are justified by how you respond to these questions.
Speaker 2:I am Okay.
Speaker 3:Exciting and I'm justified by how I select which questions to ask. Sweating bullets over here. Our first question is from Matt Stevens, a recent guest on the podcast. Do you know Matt Boy, do I?
Speaker 2:At.
Speaker 3:Calvary Christian Church. Yeah, what a doll. Matt has asked how much protein is Joel Yates eating?
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 3:I don't remember if I asked Matt to give us a question on the air.
Speaker 2:Fantastic the answer to that. That matt is not enough. He's gotta right he's. If he wants to be bulking, he's gotta be eating more.
Speaker 1:He's gotta be intaking more so I think he does the like one gram per pound thing, though, right like does he try to eat a gram of protein for every pound that he weighs I mean, I think maybe he would tell you that, but like, does that does that mean that he is?
Speaker 2:like I mean, I think maybe he would tell you that, but does that mean that he is? That's what I'm saying, not enough. We gotta bump those numbers up.
Speaker 1:Joel Yates, for the listener is on Logan's team and is the sweetest boy, really just the nicest person in the entire world, and also the biggest meathead on our staff.
Speaker 2:You know what? I will give joel credit. He is strong. He's strong, right, sweet boy, who is also very strong.
Speaker 1:But I mean, if he's wanting to deadlift more, he's got to eat like more grams of protein a day he did yesterday when we were on our trip. He said that he could deadlift more than derrickrick Henry, pound for pound.
Speaker 2:I'll take that he said. He even a step further. He said I am, pound for pound, stronger than that. That's what he said. Oh, listeners of this podcast Do with that what you will.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that question, matt Truly. It was a gift.
Speaker 2:JYates at CIY Dotcom. You can email strength tips there and get his macros.
Speaker 3:I think to keep things fair, we need to have Joel on the podcast sometime.
Speaker 1:That's true. I might let him get a word in.
Speaker 3:We'll see. We have a question from Brendan Schloss and he's asking oh, all my faves, oh, wow, okay, great. He's asking how do you balance responsibilities in youth and children's ministry? Any practical advice?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a great question how do you balance responsibilities in youth and children's ministry?
Speaker 1:I have so much respect for people that have to do that.
Speaker 2:It's difficult.
Speaker 1:It is insane.
Speaker 2:It's difficult.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it's difficult. We it's funny that actually, at the end of last year, we were at a conference where it was Corey and I we actually got to talk to people who that, like that is their responsibility, is like birth through 18 or or even birth through college age, and just you know how do you hit all those age groups and how do you, you know, minister to them all really well, and and what does it look like to they were talking. What they wanted us to talk about, it in the framework is how do you juggle two hats? And I think that's just that's the truth is, um, with you doing youth and children's, you are juggling two hats.
Speaker 2:Now the cool thing is, uh, sometimes what can be like a, a tension in ministry is how does if, if you have somebody right overseeing kids and you have somebody overseeing students, how do we work well together and transition students between ministries really well, and you, you see that happen really well and you see that sometimes be attention, um, right, when it's one person doing it, it might become a little bit easier. But also the what we're hitting on right Is this idea of well, I don't have enough time, and so, um, I think, one of the really easy ways is to write, say, okay, um, somebody who's living in that space has to have really good time management. I see the people that do it um really well, um, have a really good schedule of. These are when I do children's things, these are when I do kids things. These are when I do children's things. These are when I do kids things. These are when I do things that pertain to both together and they're really on top of schedules.
Speaker 2:But I think the most important thing is how do you equip your volunteers One thousand percent. You can't do it all alone and, especially when you have to juggle those two hats, you have to rely on a lot of people, and some people in certain spaces right, they have other staff that they get to be a part of, that they get to do this with and you're really overseeing space. But for those that are, you don't have any other staff. It's just you overseeing those two. Overseeing those two, man, how you pour into volunteers, how you equip volunteers and how you keep them coming back and wanting to serve with you and serve those students and those kids is really going to be a big make or break it, because the truth is you're never going to have enough time. But if you have people who are really bought in, sold out and volunteering and feel loved as a volunteer in your ministry, it's going to make all the difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're 10,000% right of responsibilities that every church has for volunteers. I feel like like every church has a way for volunteers to like be calling whatever you want small group leaders, sunday school teachers, whatever you know, teaching in front of a large group, leading worship, all of these types of things. But I was talking to a youth pastor who's in this situation and he has a volunteer who is like an accountant and kind of like right-brained and thinks a lot that way, who does all of his volunteer scheduling for him and it's like, if you can, that doesn't feel like a thing that you want to or should let go of. Yeah, but if you can empower somebody to do that or to take something that's very time-consuming off of your plate. Because I do also feel bad for people who have job descriptions that are frank.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be honest If you're doing youth and kids, that's too much, that's too big of a job description and some churches are in a position where that's the reality. But that doesn't mean that that's a reasonable thing for one person to do really well. But the thing you get robbed of is time to like dream, you know, time to explore like what could this be? What? What's an idea that I have? How could this play out? How could this be better? Yeah, and if you can get some of those things off your plate and there are people in your congregation who are willing and able to do them like you're, you're so right.
Speaker 2:That's such good advice, logan and I think the heart, like I will speak to, like also the like it can be hard to get volunteers, like there are a lot of, there are a lot, a lot of times I talk to people and it's like just one of the things the pain points in their ministry is getting enough volunteers or getting more volunteers and constantly feeling short on volunteers.
Speaker 2:And I think that one of the you know right, figuring out how to recruit them is one thing and figuring out how to utilize also your whole church right, getting senior pastor, lead pastor involved, other ministries in the church of finding those people and maybe directing them to your ministry Like that's a spot that they could serve in, I think is huge. That way you're not just limited to your own purview and what's right in front of you, but you get more people involved in that. I think that's a big part of it. But what you do with volunteers when you get them, I think is a huge, huge piece to this is how do I make them feel a part of the mission of this ministry?
Speaker 2:And not like a cog in a machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then how do I?
Speaker 2:constantly encourage them and show them their value so that they keep wanting to come back? And also, how do I respect their time, their boundaries? Um, I think can help in just keeping a longevity of a volunteer. You're always going to have people that move and things like that and you'll always lose some Um, but there are some. Maybe you might be able to keep um by just really figuring out and getting creative. I try to do this in my job all the time. Is, how can we be creative about loving youth and children's pastors? And I would encourage any youth, any pastor in this situation. How do I make my volunteers feel loved, known and valued? 1000%.
Speaker 1:I love it Any more, yeah, we have a question from an anonymous listener.
Speaker 3:That's not true. It's from Matt Berry.
Speaker 2:Matt Berry Medway.
Speaker 3:Church. Ohio and Matt is asking have you seen or heard any youth groups that are killing it in the student leadership team department? What are some of the main things that they're doing with their student leaders?
Speaker 1:In the student leadership department hmm, jeremy stevenson does this so well talk about it okay, but then you have to think of one while I've got one, but mine's, mine's a little bit different oh, spicy, okay, um, jeremy stevenson, christchurch, jacksonville, florida.
Speaker 1:He's been a guest on the show before actually talking about this um I believe the episode was in season one and called the perfect student leader or something like that um, so you can actually go back and listen to that whole thing, and he's got a lot of great things to say about this. But one of the biggest pieces of that puzzle for him is something that our boss, jason French, cares a lot about right now, which is he has a kitschy phrase for it that I'm not going to be able to remember. But you have to be willing to sacrifice quality in order to give students an opportunity to serve. Um, and Jeremy talks about this all the time. He's like, yep, we're going to put middle school boys in the lighting booth and they're going to miss cues, and that's okay, um, but if we're going to empower people because it starts, then right, and then you can move students through and help them to get more and more involved and discover who God has created them to be within your ministry, and then be willing to let go of things and scheduling and programming for their um like welcome time, like their mc fun and games, announcements time, like he just delegated all of that to this student and then she ended up becoming an mc for move and now I was wanting to go into ministry and it's like the thing I'll say and I'm gonna let talk is we've talked about this several times.
Speaker 1:In our research, as we were preparing for this vocational ministry initiative, we found that and I hope you're tired of hearing this because we've said it so many times on this podcast that students who came through on their decision to go into vocational ministry had two things in common. One was an adult in their in their life who cared about them and cared about their calling to ministry, and the other was opportunities to serve. Um, and yeah, it's not gonna be perfect, but you gotta let them do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no doubt there's a lot of things popping into my head when it comes to specific people, specific ministries. I actually thought of preteen ministries.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:And so there's a guy, sean Sweet, who's a friend of CIY, runs 45org Um, who talks a lot about, um, uh, having preteen leaders and how to give them leadership. Um, preteens are in a specific stage of life where they're like trying to, they're like they're like talk about it in this way of riding a bike where, um, I have taken the training wheels off but there's somebody running beside me and it's like every every now and again I can go by myself, but I also still need somebody to steady the way a little bit. And so, um, there's, uh, he's got a lot of good things and got a lot of good things to say on getting students in leadership, specifically in that pre-teenage group. Um, and again in that pre-teenage group, uh, stephanie Chase of Champion Forest Baptist Church, somebody who I got to talk to recently, friend of mine, they have students that are called LITs, leaders in training, and they just simply let them run the ministry and it is like a really there's a few facets of it of we want to give them like they're in a specific life stage where they can start to figure out independence or not, and so they allow these LITs to like, hey, we're really going to let you do this thing. And that means like when you know preteen students are coming to church in the morning for their class time and worship service, um, they're in charge of having the snacks ready and the drinks ready, and sometimes that looks like I spilt the drinks on the carpet in the hallway getting them there.
Speaker 2:And then they're looking at Stephanie like, well, what do I do? And she's like figure. She's like, figure it out, what, what do you need? What do you think you need to do? She's like figure it out, what do you think you need to do? And challenging them to figure it out on their own and giving them Now, these students are also, they've applied for this sort of thing, they've expressed interest in this, and it's just empowering them. And, hey, if they're, if they've had the thought, hey, I think I want to do this and I think I want to lead in this way, then it's like, hey, we're really going to take the steps into doing this. Um, uh, one of the things also.
Speaker 2:So, two people that you've had recently on the podcast, john John Lee um, I know, um, they do a lot of, uh, student leadership and a lot of like the way that they're discipling students and what they want them to be ready for when they hit high school. They are thinking about how do we challenge them in their faith, and so part of having your students be leaders is discipling them to be that and then in consistently challenging them and pushing them to that. And sometimes that looks like and I'm going to steal now from Matt Stevens, who says sometimes it just looks like asking a student hey, have you thought about this? Have you thought about serving? Have you thought about?
Speaker 2:Right, you might have a student who's like just a really gifted conversationalist and it's like maybe you just ask them the question hey, have you ever thought about writing a sermon? And they might be like no, and I don't want to, and it's okay, it's like that's fine. But also the power of just empowering and asking a student hey, have you thought about doing this? I see legitimately encouraging them, right, speaking life into them by I see this in you, yep, and I think you could do this and giving them the encouragement to oh and then, hey, have you thought about doing this? And then, if they're like I haven't, but I would like to, then what does it look like to then take those steps and disciple them in that and give them the opportunity in doing so, and so sometimes it just looks like giving students a challenge in front of them and asking them if they would like to take a step in it.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. I also thought of what Jason calls it activation over excellence. Got it? Matt Stevens, john Lee a couple of great episodes of the podcast, yeah, and they touch on those things in those episodes as well. So, matt, specifically in the context of like calling it a vocational ministry, but the principle applies across the board as well. So, thank you for taking the time to answer those questions, logan. Thank you, michael, for the board as well. So, uh, thank you for taking the time to answer those questions, logan. Thank you, michael, for asking them. Super well, just really good.
Speaker 1:Asker, you want to go talk to Jordan? Let's do it All right, jordan? Uh, really appreciate you being here with us today. I want to jump into a conversation that I know very little about, which is mental health in particularly. We've talked on this podcast before about like kind of the youth pastor side, like how ministry is hard and protecting our mental health is is important, but have not not dove in too far deep into the the student side. So I'm excited to talk to you about a lot of things but, uh, curious.
Speaker 1:Just to start off with what is kind of the. What are the stakes here? Like, as you, you're a licensed counselor, you're interacting with these people all the time. What is it that we're actually up against, as I'm going to speak on behalf of youth pastors, even though I'm not one, yep, but what is it that we're kind of dealing with here?
Speaker 4:uh, hopefully my answer scares you and both takes the pressure off. We don don't know. Great, I love that we don't know what we're dealing with. We have no idea.
Speaker 4:I think their research is still being compiled, right, it's still coming out and there are some people who are doing some great work, writing some great books, doing some great things, but honestly, we don't know and I think that's important one for a youth pastor, because A you're not supposed to know because you're not, like, a professional in that area, but it does somewhat intersect with spiritual matters and what it means to actually disciple a young person. So I think there is this reality where you have to have some knowledge and essentially I think you have to have enough knowledge to know what you should speak into and what you should hand off if that makes sense. Know what you should speak into and what you should hand off if that makes sense, and so, like, what's your role and responsibility in the discipleship of a young person as it pertains to their mental health? Right, because God is God of it all, right, not just our salvation, but like, salvation means the redemption, reconciliation of all things. So that includes our mind right, that includes our emotions and all those different types of things. So we have to be able to speak into the discipleship process as it pertains to those things, but also know when to hand off to the wisdom that God has given us in the world.
Speaker 4:Right Proverbs is a book in the Bible. For a reason, men of old observed the world, came to conclusions about it, and that is inspired scripture. What does that tell us? That observations, social sciences, different things of that nature, are actually important and like God created them, and so we should use them, and you're in a unique spot because you have your foot in both of those worlds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in some ways you can like hand off to yourself, which is cool. Most youth pastors cannot do that and, um, I think you know I think most youth pastors know this and would acknowledge that like, okay, there's a lot of danger actually to wading into some of these waters that we're not really trained to wade into.
Speaker 1:So I kind of want to play out just a common scenario that may arise and where you see that going and what you think might be happening. This happens all the time. You've been to MOVE conferences before, you've helped direct some of those events and been around them. Move is an incredible place because it strips away all of the things that you're used to right, I don't have my normal community. I don't have my normal vices, my video games, my whatever. I don't have my normal schedule, my normal routine, and when you get into that space, it allows you to maybe confront some things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to confront, and one of those things, I think, is mental health.
Speaker 1:So we get a lot of youth pastors who will say man, I had a student last night in our youth group time and we just had this really deep, good, rich conversation, but they admitted to me that they've, you know, been cutting themselves. Let's use that as an example. That's one that I hear every single summer. It's like, okay, cool, we're gonna have to talk about this, uh in in a lot of different ways and I want to know from you, like, what is the youth pastor's job and what is not?
Speaker 4:for sure? Well, I mean, once again, the youth pastor's job. And what is not For sure? Well, I mean, once again, the youth pastor isn't the parent, right, and it isn't a professional. So, first of all, if that person's a minor which, if they're in youth ministry they probably are your responsibility is to let their parent or guardian know as quickly as possible. That's what's transpiring.
Speaker 4:The hard thing about that is we can often feel like, or we can be in danger of losing the kid's trust, and so what I always tell people is don't take away their agency, so give them an option. Hey, are you going to tell your mom? Am I going to tell your mom? Are you going to be there when we talk to them? Do you want me to tell them as you're there? Do you want to tell them and I'll stand with you? Do you want to write it down on a piece of paper and hand it to them? And so you present them with a bunch of options, but all the options are hey, your parents or an RDN has to know about this, and so you're giving them the choice in how it's told, but it's going to be told. So you don't lose as much agency doing it that way.
Speaker 4:So, first of all, parents have to know's their responsibility to to deal with it and to do what's necessary and, if you can help them and getting the right resources, getting them connected with the right therapist hopefully churches are um taking initiative to get connected to therapists in their community. Hopefully there's therapists going to their churches that they trust, that they know are christian and are going to, uh, espouse those values. Or, if they're not, like they're not going to actively teach kids things that oppose Christianity, because we also know that's possible in my space, right, yeah, and so there's that. And then I think the other thing is just following up and just checking in on them Like you would any other kid, right, hey, how's that going? What's going on with that? Have you had any more conversations with your parents? Have you got connected with somebody and just continuing to check in on them as you would any other kid?
Speaker 1:So so, once they've talked to a parent and once they've talked to a mental health professional, um, is that a? That's a pretty safe conversation to wade into at that point, Right.
Speaker 4:In the sense that I would check on them pastorally, not like check on them Like you would any other kid. If a kid's struggling with pornography, like yo, what's going on with that, how's that going? So on and so forth. I would do it from a pastoral standpoint. I wouldn't do it from a try to get into the clinical nature of things. And sure, well, well, what you know I'm saying, like why was that? And all those different types of things that would be happening in a therapeutic space. And so you've kind of handed it off to where it needs to go right, because obviously there are legal ramifications. If you don't, that's really important. You need to to handle that correctly. And so you've done that right. You've handed it off to the parents and then checking on the welfare of the student, um, and then obviously you know, collaborate with the parents in any way that you can to make sure that they get the care that they need.
Speaker 4:But I think it's important to say here too that spiritual practices actually help with mental health. So you as a youth pastor, don't have to like learn a bunch of stuff and do a bunch of stuff outside your wheelhouse. Yes, you can learn different things that are helpful from therapy, like I think there are things that we do as therapists that are beneficial for discipleship of youth, but teaching kids how to read and understand scripture, teaching kids how to pray, teaching kids how to slow down and engage for God and hear from him in the quiet, all of those things are going to be beneficial for their mental health, right, and those are similar. Those are similar practices that we teach them in the therapeutic context. It's just that God isn't explicit in our practice of those things in that context, unless the kid wants it to be, and so all of it is centered around this idea of the window of tolerance. So the window of tolerance is this window that we all have, it all it varies in shape and size for everybody and it's your capacity to cope with life, right?
Speaker 4:So I don't know, your wife comes to you, she says something to you you don't like and it kind of like moves you up in your window towards what we would call hyperactive. So that's like more anxious, you know, maybe more angry, more jittery, and you kind of respond. However, you would usually respond when you get out of your window in that direction. If you stay up hyperactive for too long, you bounce down into what we call hypoactive, which is where your body shuts down because you can't stay in that state for a prolonged period of time. Your body needs to crash out in order to kind of like reset itself. But crashing into hypoactive isn't good, because that's where we get a lack of feeling, that's where we get self-harm, that's where we get suicidal ideation and that's where we get a sense of hopelessness.
Speaker 4:Kids sleeping all the time, not eating, and so on and so forth. And so in both cases, as a therapist and a youth pastor, I am expanding that kid's window. I'm expanding their capacity to cope with life, like understanding the scripture, spending time with God, understanding who he is and what he's, like understanding that he's with us in the midst of suffering All of those things grow our capacity to cope with the challenges of life. And in the same way, being a therapist, we learn technical skills that deal with the more explicit mental things, like explicitly focused on those things that help develop our capacity for life. And so I would say we're actually very much partnered in the same work in different ways. I think, like I said, youth pastors have to have an idea of what's going on over here to be able to tie it back into what they're actually supposed to be doing over here, which is developing spiritual practices in young people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I you've hit on both of these things. But I feel like a lot of student pastors have to like primary fears when it comes to these types of situations, one being like I'm handing over my ability to pastor this person to you know somebody else who in some cases, may or may not even be a believer or whatever, and it sounds like you're saying no, not true, to that correct. And then the other one I want to talk about a little bit is like damaging the relationship which, when I was in youth ministry I dealt with this, where it's like this you know what you have to do for the student, because it's the right thing to do and because it would be illegal not to which is we gotta talk to somebody, right, but there's that fear in the back of your mind like this person is never gonna talk to me again. You know this is this, is it? You know I got to do this one good thing and now we're gonna not not have a relationship anymore.
Speaker 1:Um and you talked about like giving students agency and allowing them to like maintain some control, um, of the situation and how that kind of helps to that end. I'm curious, like is it more often that you see um there continue to be like wholeness in that relationship between um youth pastor and and the student. Or is that a real fear? Does that, like falling out over over a lack of trust or breach of trust, happen with some kind of commonality?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it once again. I think that the defining factor I've seen thus far is that giving of the agency to the student in what you can, and so if I just go ahead and do it, then yeah, there's that breach of trust, especially if I haven't really communicated to them that that's what I'm going to do and they're not clear on that. But I think when I involve them in the decision and I think that's consistent with how young people understand the world today they don't operate and function in terms of hierarchy. They don't see youth pastors as people in positions of power so much as they see them as people they're in relationship to. I think that's why our youth often talk to us like they're grown and it's like bro, why are you talking to me like that? It's because they think they can talk to us as if they understand the world the same way we do.
Speaker 4:That's too real Because they live in a world, where it's comments and likes and shares, and so for them, truth is social. Everybody has an opinion, everybody's opinion is valuable, and so they come to youth group with that same perspective. That's their worldview, and so when you involve them in the decision, when you allow them to participate in it, you are functioning in a way that they understand reality, and so you're more likely to have a better outcome. If you give them some agency, if you're like hey, yo, okay, cool, I really appreciate you sharing this with me. I'm so honored that you would allow me to step into this with you.
Speaker 4:And we got to tell your parents because we got to keep you safe, and so, look, I'm going to give you a second to process that. I'm going to sit with you while you just take that in. We got to talk to your parent and, like, how do we want to do it? Like let's do it together. Like, how, how do you want to do it?
Speaker 4:Do you want to call them? Do you want me to tell them for you and you'd be there with me? Do you want to not be there when I tell them? Do you want to tell them and I'll be there? Do you want to tell them and then I'll follow up with them when they, when you get home, to make sure you told them like, how do you want to do it? But so I want to give you some agency in that, right, but it's going to happen, yeah, it's, it's got to happen, yeah. And so in that, what I've never found, that a kid's like it's I mean, it's a rare occurrence where kids like, no, you tell them and I'll never talk to you again. And the reality is, if that's what they're saying, they were going to say that anyways.
Speaker 4:And your responsibility is still what your responsibility is, because at the end of the day, I'd rather that kid not talk to me again and still be alive 100%. Yeah, yeah, just keeping it a stack. If you never talk to me again, never come to my youth group again, but you're alive and God uses this to work in your life. Praise the Lord, praise the.
Speaker 1:Lord Straight up. Yeah, that's hard to hard to say, but also super true, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Logan. What do you think, jordan, you mentioned something that piqued my curiosity there with talking about right, their worldview and there's no hierarchy right in the world of likes, comments and shares and just that being students' worldview today and I'm curious about what are some like you said that in Brad and I are both like oh yeah, but I think you put words to something that maybe we didn't have words for originally. What are some other things right now, especially around this conversation mental health that are maybe those things that um are different with our youth today's worldview, that we're just not picking up on, that affect these things of, uh, mental health, especially with, with the students in high school and in middle school and what that kind of looks like.
Speaker 4:Yeah for sure, I mean, man, there's so many things I would say. Primarily is that, like, the way that they view the world is completely different from us, um, and as a consequence of that, they um, yeah, they just see the world way more differently than we do. I think the other thing that I'm thinking about I'm reading this book right now you guys may have read it the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, right, and he talks about this idea of not just that they've been presented with these um devices, but that also, um, they've been overprotected, right, and so that's also contributed to their view of the world. So, like it's really interesting because young people seem to be more afraid of doing things than we were before, but then also like they live in this like weird social media space where they feel like they have more power and more control. It's like it's just like this strange nuance that I'm still trying to figure out in my mind how it works.
Speaker 1:Is he the one that says, like they're, they're overprotected in real life and underprotected online, underprotected through technology.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so I think that that's massively contributing to the way that we relate to them. I think also, too, one of the interesting things about young people is like they seem to like labels. Like our generation didn't like labels at all. I don't feel like I feel like we ran away from them. I feel like they are more prone to them and I think I feel like that's like an invitation away from them. I feel like they are more prone to them and I think I feel like that's like an invitation to know them, and so like I feel like that they give themselves labels in order to distinguish themselves from one another and that those labels are actually an invitation to be known, as opposed to something that we should get offended or upset about.
Speaker 4:Like I've had tons of conversations with young people where they tell me they're a part of a particular community, whether it be LGBTQ or whatever else, and when I get into the brass tacks of what that actually means for them, it means something very different than what I actually understood it to be in the first place, like when I look at the technical definition of what that thing might be, and so oftentimes I find they're using these particular labels in a very hyper relevant way to themselves, that I actually have to get into the nuances with nuances. I have to get into the nuances with the individual to actually discover what it is that they actually mean, because they, at the same time as putting these labels on themselves, that usually we would use labels to put people in a certain box. I think they use the labels to actually try and distinguish themselves and it's an invitation for us to discover what those labels mean and, in doing so, know them as an individual. Is that like a.
Speaker 1:that's really interesting Is that like a um community thing too, like I want to belong and this is a place where I feel like I belong.
Speaker 4:I think absolutely. There's like. There's that part of it too, right Like cause.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you say like the labels the labels and like it sounds like you're kind of saying they don't even mean what we think. They mean a lot of the time, which is no bizarre.
Speaker 4:No, you're not saying that, or no, yeah, I am. I am saying that, okay, absolutely. Yeah, I am saying that, oh, okay, absolutely, I got you. Yeah, yeah, they absolutely don't mean what we think they mean. And I think what's interesting about language is that over time, like a word has a specific definition and then over time we add to that definition, right, and the word begins to be used for more things. I mean, like that's the nature of slang, right? Like I say dope, and well, that's not what you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Like that means something else, but now we use it to say yo, that's cool, you know what I'm saying. And so it's the same thing with other words that kids use. So they're using these words and they mean something different or nuanced to each particular person, and so I found, like having more conversation, like, what do you mean when you say that? What does it actually mean for you? Yeah, oh, that's what you mean, you know, that's that's how you you define yourself, and maybe maybe you're using that label for attention, maybe you're using that label so that people will actually notice you.
Speaker 4:Um, which is another thing, I think kids don't distinguish between infamy and fame, and so, um, popularity is popularity is okay, whether it's popularity's popularity for doing something good or doing something wild, like they're both the same thing, and if you think about it, that makes sense, because they grew up in social media and everything's about infamy and fame are the same thing, and so if you do something that gets you a bunch of likes, comments and shares, that's what validates it, as opposed to whether it's moral, whether it's right, true, good, beautiful, any of those types of things, those things don't really don't really matter I think I think something that really jumped out to me about that is I feel like so often a student will do what you're talking about and apply a label to themselves and you're saying like, oh, I'd be curious about that.
Speaker 1:Ask questions because that's going to be something, but like, a lot of times, our gut check reaction is like no bad, don't do, don't say that you know, and I feel like that's just why.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's why, right, don't say that, you know, and I feel like that's just why. Why, right? So we feel like that thing that they're doing prick set our own sense of righteousness, and here's what I mean. If I'm the youth pastor, I got a kid in there who's now saying some wild stuff or professing doing some wild stuff. I feel like that makes me a bad youth pastor, so I've got to nip that in the bud as quickly as possible. So it's actually about me feeling some type of way about me and now modifying said kid's behavior.
Speaker 4:And parents do the same thing. Right, it's their own sense of righteousness attached to what their kid is doing or not doing. And it becomes about behavior modification, not for the sake of that kid, but for the sake of their reputation, and so what we have to do is be curious, ask the question well, why do you believe that? Okay, what makes you think that's okay? Oh, cool, cool, what makes you feel like you should participate in that behavior? That's how you get to the heart of the matter and then actually be able to speak to the issue that you really truly need to speak to, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:We were at a retreat a couple of days ago and totally different context. We were talking about marketing and met with Joy Joslin. She's Brock, she works for the Oklahoma City Thunder and is their director of customer relations, and she talked about curiosity a lot from a marketing perspective. It's like that's how people feel connected to you is when you take interest in them. Logan made the comment that we just need to have the Ted Lasso dart scene playing on a loop. They just weren't curious. They just weren't curious. They just didn't know. That's what we need to do Be curious, not judgmental. I love it. I love it, love it. Um, can we talk about technology a little bit more?
Speaker 4:uh, we can can I add one more thing to the previous question?
Speaker 1:yes, one more thing, and I'll be fast, you can say literally whatever you want.
Speaker 4:Okay, good deal so the last thing I would say is I feel like this generation self-diagnoses a ton when it comes to mental health. Right, so they'll go online I'm anxious, I'm depressed, I have trauma and, like even some kids, will go as far as to think it's cool to say that they have a personality disorder, which I've spent time with people who have personality disorders. With people who have personality disorders it's not cool. And so I think part of that is this desire to be known, different, distinguished, so on and so forth, in a infamy, disfigured type of way. And, and so I think one of the important things we have to communicate to them is like what anxiety actually is, like anxieties, normal. That's the truth, and here's what I mean by that.
Speaker 4:If I'm standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon and I look out and my whole body tingles which it does every time I've stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon Because my body's telling me hey, bro, you meeting Jesus, it's over, you're gone Is that a good thing? Yes, it is. It's absolutely a good thing that I feel anxious on the edge of the Grand Canyon, because that anxiety is communicating some very helpful information to me Right now. If I go home and I stand on a stool in my pantry and I experience the same anxiety that I did on the edge of the Grand Canyon. Something's off, something's out of order, right. And so there's a difference between me feeling anxious because I have a test, me feeling anxious because there's some stuff going on with my parents, or a hard conversation I gotta have or whatever, Like that's normal, that's a part of life. We experience anxiousness about those things and we should take care of ourselves so that that anxiety doesn't stay for a prolonged period of time and get out of order. Where I'm experiencing mental health challenges in ways that I shouldn't be, about things that I shouldn't be, now that said thing has got out of order, right.
Speaker 4:Like me being sad is totally appropriate. If somebody dies, if I lose a job, if I have to move house, if I move school, whatever, right, there are reasons to be sad. There are appropriate reasons to experience depressive symptoms. But, like, if I can't get out of my bed, if I have a constant sense of hopelessness and like that's about anything for any reason and there's not anything significant going on in my life at that juncture or point in time, something's out of order and so I think also we need to normalize. Hey, experiencing anxiety is normal. Yeah, being sad is normal, grieving is normal. Traumatic experiences, unfortunately, like happen Right. And then there's also like the real diagnosable, like anxiety and diagnosable depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, and real personality disorders. But there's a clear difference between those things in what we might experience in everyday life. Just living as humans in a broken world. That's hard and people are suffering and we're suffering too, and so I think, like making that distinction for young people is important as well.
Speaker 1:I mean it goes right back to the labeling thing. Right, it's like they, yeah they, they want to be identified with that community.
Speaker 1:That's, that's, that's wild okay um, let's talk technology a little bit, because it is a big, big deal. Um, logan, I'm actually gonna put you on the spot a tiny bit because I do. I feel like this this is just Logan is my friend. Uh, we have a relationship that we've had for for seven years now. I feel like you are a person, and maybe I'm totally wrong, but I feel like you have a healthier relationship to your phone than I do.
Speaker 1:Um, some days, maybe maybe, maybe not but like that's just a perception that I have about you. So I'm curious when, and you also another piece of information here work with a group of 10th grade guys 10th grade guys, so they have phones and they're figuring out their life and you talk about how they're blowing up your phone with who knows what all the time and that that is a text message.
Speaker 2:If any of them are listening. They're probably not, but if any of them are listening, it's muted Because I want to check on that conversation. When I want to check on that conversation. Otherwise I'm going to have 100 text messages blowing me up every two hours.
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious to jump into a conversation with jordan about technology and the role that that plays in mental health. What kind of your observations are about high school students and the way that they relate to their phones, like this device that they carry around with them all the time?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, I have, I have. I was actually I'm glad you brought up technology, because that was where I was going to have my next question come from. But, um, I I mean, uh, I know, one of the things that I just noticed with my 10th grade guys and I'm sure you guys have seen this with students that you work with uh is the anxiety If I don't have my phone. Like my phone is like an extension of my body, an extension of who I am Cyborg, yeah, and so I prefer Iron man, but it's my Jarvis.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I just like that that being such a deep part of like I have to have this and I feel off without it. Is is just a crazy, crazy, crazy thing phone but I still feel like I have the ability to go and put my phone and be okay, because that wasn't such an ingrained part of me. But I do still have to teach myself that like I can set my phone here and I can be good. But my students now are just like this is just a part of who they are, and so Jordan. So what I was going to ask is, knowing that this just is a reality of today's world with our youth, how can we best equip them? What are some things that we can do for them and teach them in technology, this meshing of technology and mental health? What are tools we can give them? What are things that we can do to kind of help when this is just this is the reality? We know our students are entrenched in technology. Yeah, I mean, I think you.
Speaker 4:You gave the answer like we've got to train them to be able to put this thing down. We've got to. We've got to help them establish a right relationship with technology and what it actually is. And I think camp is an incredible opportunity for that right. It's an opportunity to put your phone down, get away from your life and everything that's going on and really have some set apart time with God. And I think consistently when I'm at camps and kids put their phones away, there's some initial anxiety and there might be some underlying anxiety, but they all come away saying I'm glad that I did that. And so I think it's up to us as youth pastors, youth leaders, to figure out how we kind of incorporate those practices into our youth ministries and continue to challenge kids to like fast from technology, like fasting from food not so much Fasting from technology yes, please, all the time, as much as you can.
Speaker 4:The more I do youth ministry stuff and the more time I spend with youth, the more convinced I become that technology is like completely disfiguring our young people. It's just messing them up. I think there's a number of reasons for that One and I think it's partly their relationship to it, right, I think one, when you have your phone, you begin to live in another world and you exit this one, right. And so, like I was at camp just a couple of weeks ago and I was talking to the kids and I'm like yo, have you ever, like, been on your phone? You get lost in scrolling for hours on end and then you finally come back to the real world in like a drunken stupor and you feel groggy because, like, you got lost and you forgot that you had the body and these, all these kids are like yes, and so I think what's happening is kids are like entering into this other world, the digital world, exit in the world that they live in, getting disconnected from their bodies, right, which I don't think is good, because when we talk about Romans, one, when we talk about Genesis, like one of the ways that we understand who God is is through nature, and how can we understand God through nature if we're never in it because we're somewhere else?
Speaker 4:And so kids are constantly on their phones, and I think something unique about technology, or social media in particular, is it allows us to see great good but also great evil. And so I think what happens for young people is they learn very quickly that the world is evil, and so what that does is makes them not want to live in the real world. And so now they want to spend more time on their phone, right, disconnected from reality, creating their own reality, or at least they feel as if they are from reality, create in their own reality, or at least they feel as if they are. And then I think this contributes to all the challenges disconnecting from your body, disconnected from your emotions, disconnected from all of that stuff. And I think that leaves room for all of the challenges that we're seeing concerning identity, concerning mental health, because kids are in this cycle of getting disconnected from themselves, living in a space that continues to tell them that the world that they go back to to eat and sleep in and use the bathroom is evil. So they keep going back there and it's just continuing to fill them with that narrative, and I think that's what's contributing to the anxiety, to the confusion, so on and so forth. And so we have to get them back into the world and we have to teach them that the world that they live in is good because God created it, and we need them to experience that and then, yes, they can step back into the digital world because it's not going anywhere.
Speaker 4:It's the driver of the economy now information and money, right and so they've got to be able to use that tool but recognize that that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 4:It's a tool and, like, the algorithm is God You're not. You might think you're God in the technological world, but you're not. The algorithm is and, yes, to some capacity, it's a reflection of you. But we also know that they're suggesting posts, there's all types of different things that are happening that they're experimenting with in the midst of that and that can pull a kid in any particular direction for any reason and like there's just the insidious nature of it, like I'll give you an example. So we're actively trying to grow our social media right now to like have more youth workers following us, more youth ministries following us, so they can know about what we do. And you know, if they want to use the content and resources we create, dope do. And you know, if they want to use the content and resources, we create dope. And so what I have seen is for for a few months, we were experiencing of bots yes, commenting and liking our comments on other youth ministry pages amazing, wild.
Speaker 1:That is absolutely insane that I can't even wrap my mind around it. What's the goal?
Speaker 4:What do you think the goal is?
Speaker 1:I know what the goal is. I'm not trying to put an explicit tag on this podcast. I know I get you.
Speaker 4:I was so incensed, bro, I am on fire in my heart and mind trying to figure out what to do about this. And then I go, like you do do, to Reddit when you need some answers and I'm like, is anybody else experiencing this? The answer is yes All the time, and the reality is this Instagram is going to do nothing about it. Yeah, they're not, or any other platform for that matter, not just them in particular, but because, once again, like, it's within the parameters of fair usage with their stuff, right and so or at least they say it is. And so what? What does? What does that do for a young person that, just you know, is innocently trying to look up bible verses? And then they click on some suggestive picture and next thing you know they're in a world that they had no intent of going into and they're lost in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's that easy, man it's that easy, man, it is that easy. Oh, my goodness. Okay, um, do you have four more hours? Hey man, let's go. I'm just kidding, I don't have four more hours, um, but I am curious about. So it it? It seems like, really, the spine of this conversation is social media. Um, and I think you know, obviously, that's appropriate. I think social media is terrible. I think it's ruining people, um, and, and the way that they think about the world and themselves, uh, it, it would the same apply. So I'm thinking I have a group of eighth grade guys and they spend not a lot of time on their phones texting people, but they spend a lot of time in front of their TVs playing Fortnite or Minecraft. Like, is that the same? Are they doing the same thing?
Speaker 4:Yes, okay, so I'll give you an example One of my really good friends, and I think this is really interesting because I think there you an example One of my really good friends. Well, I think this is really interesting because I think there's an opportunity for us to get to know them in that. So one of my really good friends, his son, built a Minecraft world, and what I did is I sat down with him and walked through his Minecraft world and what his Minecraft world essentially showed me was like what he was longing for.
Speaker 1:It's the new art therapy.
Speaker 4:Let's go, yeah, yeah, like so, hey, I don't like the world I live in, so let me go create another one, yeah right.
Speaker 4:And so I think like there's I think, yes, but it's a little bit different like the, the video game in space, yeah, but I think it like it has the same potential, if that makes sense. And so there's this opportunity for me to enter into that with them and kind of learn about them if I get an opportunity to see their Minecraft world, if I get an opportunity to see their Fortnite characters and why they create them, the way they do, and all those different types of things. It allows for conversation, but at its core, it essentially is, in my opinion, to some degree like escapism, just like we were doing with our phones. And, once again, I think the thing that makes it difficult is, like the reality is, if you're really good at video games, you can make a ton of money. So there's this balance between kids engaging with that stuff and like also staying healthy, yeah, and so I think like, once again, it always brings us back to like what's going on in the heart. What's the motivation? Like? Is this like, hey, like I feel like god called me to play video games and I'm gonna like play video games and share the gospel, or I'm gonna play video games to the best of my ability and give a bunch of money away to Kingdom Endeavors or whatever I don't know Dope. And then is it like no, I use video games to escape because my mom and dad argue all the time and my dad's an alcoholic and my mom takes a bunch of Xanax and whatever. You know what I mean. And so I think it's in the investigation, like we talked about earlier in the questions, being curious about why they do what they do and what they get out of it. We figure out what's going on with them and then we actually get the opportunity to minister, cause here's the reality too.
Speaker 4:Like there were kids that are on social media all the time in our high schools, but like they're making money. Like I remember I was involved in a ministry before and there was this girl she had 3 million followers on Instagram. She was in high school, wow. And so she's making bread. All these brands are asking her to post and paying her five, six figures to post, and so it's like her relationship to social media is a little bit different Now. The dangers are still the same and I think she still needs to be discipled and like challenged and making sure that you know she's um walking with the Lord, but at the same time, it's like you're set for life If you manage that properly, if you manage that accordingly, right and so like. I think those, those are like unique challenges that the social space in gaming presents uh for us, and so we have to like it can't be, it's not this, all or nothing, right, it's got to be this both end. Um, and that's what makes it so difficult my brain is mush I just, it's so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's so much. One of the most uh, enlightening things that, like you said, jordan, that has stuck with me is the kids and students are learning that the world is evil so much sooner and they're seeing it in this social space and so then they're going and like you've seen it in ways that we never saw it before we didn't know like I wasn't. I mean I went on social media at the ages that they can be on.
Speaker 4:That wasn't a thing when I was in high school and it sticks with me to this day. One of the most horrifying things I ever saw was, if you remember, those terrorists were starting to behead people. You remember those videos and so I saw one of those and that was my introduction to and so I saw one of those and that was like my introduction to like yo, there are people out here that are doing some wild stuff, bro, like that is so evil. I can't imagine what it takes for you to do that to somebody. That like scarred me in a very real sentence, like I still remember it to this day.
Speaker 1:How old how old are you?
Speaker 4:jordan.
Speaker 1:I'm 35, 35 yeah I was gonna say the same thing. It's like 9 11 was yeah, bro, like I grew up.
Speaker 4:So much that day. That was our real introduction, introduction to like yo. There's real people out here that like really want to do some sinister stuff. But these kids, if they've accidentally bumped into the wrong thing for the wrong reason you exploring technology which they probably have they've accidentally bumped into the wrong thing for the wrong reason you exploring technology, which they probably have they've been introduced to some really evil stuff.
Speaker 2:Man Well, and the thing is it exists out there that the like, the depths of which, like you, can just keep seeing. Yeah, the, you're right, you're like. I saw one video and it's like. There, I guarantee you, there are pages of things that it's just they Like there, I guarantee you, there are pages of things that it's just. They could keep going and keep scrolling, which is terrifying and so scary, but I love the like, right, what we all need and I think we get this like what we all need is just more of the gospel, just continue to focus on the gospel and Jesus, but the framing of it is with students. Today, like you know, the world is evil, but Jesus can come and he can redeem it and he can restore your world and the world's worth being in when he is with you and when his Holy Spirit dwells inside of you.
Speaker 4:And I would say like to that. But before that, right, and I think this is partly the issue with how we present the gospel we start with sin. That's not where the story starts. The story starts with creation and God creating everything good. Everything that God has created is still, fundamentally, at its core, good.
Speaker 4:The problem is we take the things that God has created and we use them in ways that are evil. It's not that those things are evil in of themselves, right, like sex isn't evil, but we use it for evil things. Alcohol isn't evil and we use it for evil things, right. So the food isn't evil. Money isn't evil, but we use it for evil things. And so there's a guy who wrote this book I think it's Al Walters, and Al Walters Creation Regained, and he talks about this idea of structure and direction. So, structure God creates everything good. Direction we decide how we're going to use it.
Speaker 4:So when we look at when the Bible talks about evil, like when God's talking about evil specifically I think it's in the old Testament Evil is like, if you look at it in the original language, it's to spoil. It's to like take something that God created and use it in the wrong way. That's sin, and so we do that all the time. And so it's not that those things aren't good, it's that we are using them for selfish, corrupt, harmful means to ourselves and to other people. And so I think once again, the world inherently in of itself is good. Yes, it has been affected and fractured by sin, absolutely, but at its core it's good.
Speaker 4:And what is God going to do? He's going to reconcile all things to himself in Christ. He's going to restore everything, right, and so that means he's not just going to blow it up and set it on fire and do away with it, but he's going to eradicate sin from it, right. And so new heavens, new earth, and so I think that should affect the way we communicate what this thing actually is, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:And so, like there's this goodness that you can experience the R and wonder of sitting on a mountain or being in a forest or seeing the beauty of creation you know what I'm saying as you go through a certain part of the country or whatever, or sitting by the water, whatever it is that you're doing, like you can experience God right there, cause God created it, and that awe and wonder kind of taps you into this reality that there's something larger, grander, bigger than you, that, like, created this thing and has allowed you to be a part of it, and so I think that's that's that's the good that I'm talking about. Uh, kids needing to connect back to right. It's almost like we're just returning to ancient spiritual practices. Honestly, um, slowing down and really engaging with nature, engaging with our bodies, engaging with one another, engaging with God, like yeah, that's good stuff.
Speaker 2:Uh, jordan, I'm curious. Uh, I think there are going to be a lot of people listening that are like where can I learn more? And uh, what, what are some? What are some things I can start reading, what are some things I can start watching, um to be more informed on the conversation of mental health, on technology with students. Um, you being very prominent in this space, um, just having a lot of knowledge, what are some resources you can point people to?
Speaker 4:man, that's a good question. Um, well, like I said, I think that anxious generation book's been really good so far. I would definitely pick that up. Um, I'm trying to think off the top of my head. What would I recommend to people? Now you got me looking at my book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just saying looking at the books in the back um, I mean, obviously we've got our stuff.
Speaker 4:We've got our podcast, the rltk podcast. We've got our website, reframeyouthcom if you want to check out the things that we're creating and putting out. So these are things that we commonly uh talk about, wrestle through, argue about and try and navigate together. Um, I'm trying to think, what else would I recommend?
Speaker 1:well, while you think about that, we, uh, we are kind of needing to wind down our time together a little bit here. But, um, curious what advice I mean we've talked a lot about, like what we're up against here, which is, if I could you know I might be overstepping by summarizing it this way, but, uh, it sounds like one of the primary things affecting kids in their mental health is escapism through technology, would it? Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it right now. And then. So, like, what would you coach youth pastors to actually do about that? You know, practically, like how do we live in this world Like themselves, or in their youth ministries, or both, in their youth ministries in particular, I mean, yeah, it would be helpful for them personally, but let's talk about on the youth ministry side.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think our youth ministries oftentimes move too fast. So we have replicated what we have seen in the world around us, which is like let's move fast, let's be fun, let's be flashy, let's have the performance and promotion and different things of that nature and I'm not saying those things are always bad, like, obviously we can have fun and different things of that nature but I think that we want to create a space that's different from the world that kids live in and I think that the pace that we've moved at in our youth ministries becomes really important. So if we can move a little bit slower, we can move a little bit slower in, like what we do and how we transition from thing to thing. Is there space for silence? Is there space for kids to slow down from their day? Because a lot of times kids are coming in and they're not even paying attention to what's happening in our youth ministries and part of the reason for that is they're worried about what's going on after or they're still thinking about what happened before and they haven't had space to really take a moment to breathe, process that and put that down and step into what's happening in the context of the youth ministry. And so I think we can create a slowness and a pace that allows them to engage with God in ways that perhaps they're not engaging with God outside of that room because it's likely that they're not and then start to present certain challenges.
Speaker 4:What does it look like for you to put your phone away for an hour every day, or an hour once a week? What does it look like for you to get out in nature and go for a walk? What does it look like for you to sit in your backyard or to go to the local park and spend some time with God like presenting some different opportunities and then what does it look like for us to practice those things together? Maybe that's what youth group looks like one week. I think they spend two hours a week with us, right? Maybe four hours if you do a Wednesday and a Sunday or whatever, and so we've got to be preparing them for what the rest of their week looks like, and I think sometimes we get too focused on what we want youth group to be as opposed to what it needs to be, in order to prepare them for the world that they live in.
Speaker 1:And I think yeah, that's interesting because I think a lot of youth pastors might lean more towards like well, I'm going to make this something that is comfortable for students, because then they'll be able to relate and connect. You're saying it might actually be more valuable to do something that actually makes them really uncomfortable. Correct and you might have to fight them on a little bit in order to get them from here down to here.
Speaker 4:And I think that's what they want. Yeah, and here's the reality. Right, I can do all that cool stuff, but they can find something cooler on their phone. They can find somebody who's better speaking than me, they can find better production, better video, all those different types of things. All those things exist.
Speaker 4:What they can't replace is the relationship, the authenticity of us sitting face to face and having a conversation and me sharing my life with them and them sharing their life with me. They can't get that anywhere else, and so we have to make sure that that's what we're giving them in the context of our ministries and, once again, they're not hierarchical, so they want to sit in spaces where it's more shared. We're discerning truth together, we're asking questions and answering them together. Everybody's contributing to the conversation, and I think there's ways to do that and still communicate scripture as authoritative and still make sure that you're driving home the points that you want to drive home concerning whatever it is that you're talking about. I just think we can just go about it a little bit differently, and I think it can be more effective.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's all I got Logan feel good. This is great stuff. Thanks, jordan. Oh my gosh, thank you so much, man. I mean, really this conversation challenged me personally in a lot of ways and really this conversation challenged me personally in a lot of ways. It challenged me as somebody who deals with young people in a lot of ways and just really appreciate the context and perspective around mental health you've given us here. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Glad to do it, man.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me logan man okay, honestly brad, what's your screen time, because that's what I was a little bit like truly, I know, but also like I mean, you said this off mic and I believe it and I want to say it on mic, like I want to bring him back for eight more hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, jordan has a ton of good stuff.
Speaker 1:You could tell a lot of ways, that was like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah For sure. Yeah, there's just so much there. Oh, my goodness, it was a great conversation, a really convicting conversation for people that work with students, I think, a critical conversation that maybe we don't give enough thought to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope you learned something, were encouraged today, but also maybe anxious in a healthy way, as he talked about you know of. Okay, there's, there's more to learn and do and and things to think about in your ministry.
Speaker 1:That first question, when he was like I don't know, it's like what I need you to know, all right, well, we got a lot to think about. I'm going to have you. Uh, logan closes out real quick by reading our blessing.
Speaker 2:May God show you grace and bless you. May he make his face shine on you. May you experience the love of Christ, through whom God gives you fullness of life. May you be strengthened by his power. May Christ himself make his home in your heart, that you would be full of his love and grace and that those you serve would see Jesus in you.
Speaker 1:Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, lauren Bryan and myself. I'm super grateful for both Jordan and Logan for being with us today. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to this show on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. We're going to be back in a couple weeks. We will either choose your own adventure except I'm going to choose it for you. We will either be talking about leading worship for students, which is a conversation that we'll definitely have before the end of the series, or we're going to jump into a little series where we're just going to kind of spotlight some churches that are doing some cool different things. So one of those things will definitely happen in two weeks. In the meantime, please reach out to us on the ci community facebook group or by email at podcastciycom. We will see you next time, thank you.