Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE4.08: NextGen Discipleship from Birth to Graduation: Part 2 with Anne Wilson and John Luzadder
Mailbag questions or topic suggestions? Text us!
What if your church could create a stronger bond with families and youth through a unified ministry approach? Learn how two experts in next-gen ministry, John Luzader and Anne Wilson, are paving the way for spiritual growth and support. John, CIY’s Vice President of Experiences, shares his invaluable insights drawn from years as a youth pastor and parent. He emphasizes the necessity of a cohesive church team dedicated to providing continuous spiritual guidance. John reveals how churches can become allies to parents by offering resources and facilitating vital spiritual conversations at home.
Anne Wilson, NextGen Pastor at Trader’s Point Christian Church, adds her experiences in unifying children's and student ministries. Her journey from youth pastor to leading a comprehensive NextGen ministry gives her a unique perspective on the common communication challenges youth pastors face. Anne discusses the power of integration in ministries to foster collaboration and shared vision, making it easier to support families effectively. She highlights how a unified strategy not only bridges gaps but also empowers ministries to resource parents more thoroughly.
We explore the transformative power of collaboration, sharing strategies that ease transitions from children's to youth ministry and build trust among church teams. Discover how joint programs and shared responsibilities between kids and youth pastors enhance engagement and address broader community concerns, like technology use among youth. By focusing on what benefits families most, our guests demonstrate how a ministry built on collaboration and trust can offer a cohesive and welcoming environment.
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Hello, I am Brad Warren. This is Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Last week we got to talk to John Lee about NextGen ministry, which was super fun with Lane Moss. This week we're getting another perspective on NextGen ministry. We're going to chat with Anne Wilson. She's the next-gen pastor at Traders Point Christian Church in Indianapolis and, fun fact, a member of the board here at CIY. We love Anne. You might have seen her out on the road speaking at one of our events. She's spoken for MOVE for many, many years and does a wonderful job. Moral of the story we love Anne. I'm very excited for you to hear from her about her new adventure in next-gen ministry. But first we get to chat with CIY's Vice President of Experience, john Luzader. John, for the first time ever, welcome to Beyond the Event. Thanks, brad. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you're here.
Speaker 1:I've tried to make this happen literally for years and you are the busiest person at 2201 North Main Street in Joppa, missouri. That's not true. That is actually 100% true. You are always on the phone. You're always pacing, talking on the phone, or you're in Phoenix, or you're in a meeting or whatever. Everybody loves john and wants to hear what john has to say. That's a true fact. Um, so what does it mean that you're the vice president? Because I know what it means, but like what does it mean? What is the vice president experience? What is that? What is that?
Speaker 2:that's a good question.
Speaker 1:I asked myself that some days because you were the vice president of culture, I was, and then they, and then we split, split that out then there's someone way better suited for culture than me jennifer deardorff. We love her. She crushes it. She crushes it. Uh, what do you? What do you? What do you do here?
Speaker 2:I work on the team of people who lead out in each of our programs, so there's one person who kind of oversees the delivery of Superstar, Move, Mix, Engage and then our digital resources. The people who have those responsibilities are the team that I work with.
Speaker 1:All of those people have been on the show before Lane Moss, Caleb DeRoyne, Caitlin Adams, Corey Klein, Brittany Shoemake, John Luzatter sit around a table together and help figure out how to make great experiences for youth pastors and for students. That's us, that's you, and you do a wonderful job at it, if I do say so myself. Thanks, Brad. Okay, we're talking about next-gen ministry today. You have some next-gen people that live in your house. I do Little meatheads as you call them.
Speaker 2:I do call them that pretty often, you're meatheads, all boys. I have a freshman in high school, junior in high school and a freshman in college.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. It sounds like a lot. So what do you think about next-gen ministry? Why is that important to John Luzetter, dad of three boys?
Speaker 2:Super great question. Uh, I've been a youth pastor most of my life Um is that true?
Speaker 1:You, you were a youth pastor longer than you worked here.
Speaker 2:Hmm, we just passed that threshold. Just. Oh, wow, that's crazy. Okay, so, um, love, um love. Youth ministry, love, love, uh, I'm a little bit more geared towards high school students and junior high students Probably it's probably the safest way to say that. Uh, I know how to have fun and be crazy. Uh, also don't mind having serious conversations, and so have enjoyed all that kind of stuff. Been at CY now for uh 16. We're going working towards, uh, longer than that. Uh, love what we do here. Uh, we're working towards longer than that, love what we do here. Been a dad for 19 of those years, which is kind of crazy. And I will tell you, learn more lessons about youth ministry being a dad than probably being a youth pastor, which is weird. Next-gen ministry figuring out how to have some kind of continuity between all of your people on that next-gen team from a parent's perspective is super, super helpful.
Speaker 1:How come, how does it change your life if all of those guys are on the same page?
Speaker 2:It makes my life way easier. I'll just tell you this as a youth pastor you want to tell your kids about Jesus and you want to connect with their friends and you want them to experience God in ways that shape their heart. There's no doubt about that. But when you're done that evening they go home and guess where they go? They go to my house and for the next six days, as a parent, I'm trying to figure out how to have spiritual conversations, how to help them make sense of the world, the crazy world that they live in, whether that's at school or in sports or whether that's in our own home, how to mitigate being a high school boy man making decisions that may be different than everybody else.
Speaker 2:And as a parent, sometimes those conversations just are hard. You don't know how to have them. You don't know if you know the right answer. You don't know how to have them. You don't know if you know the right answer. You don't know if your personality is the same as their personality and what you're going to say is going to resonate with them. And there's a lot of those kind of hurdles in the world of being a parent of a student who's trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and having a church that supports you and helps you and equips you and gives you questions to ask when you don't know the right questions or gives you things to say when you don't know the right things Super, super helpful.
Speaker 1:From the day that they're born until the time they graduate high school. Having an ally in the church is just super important.
Speaker 2:I'd extend that until the time they get on their own Okay.
Speaker 1:We're in a new world. The Blues Adders are a new chapter with the college college thing, and it's not as easy as it looked when I was a youth pastor, that is for sure. But you said a very interesting thing there, which is, um, I don't know, this was a little clause you had in there. I don't know if they have the same personality as me or not sure you have a unique personality.
Speaker 1:You were raised by a man who was a Marine right, that's true. Yeah, so military household. We love John so much. You're so great. I'm curious which of your boys is the most like you?
Speaker 2:Oh, my youngest. Yeah, mm-hmm, personality-wise, for sure, my oldest is similar to him, like he's really perceptive.
Speaker 1:He can kind of no.
Speaker 2:No, his personality as a 14-year-old is very similar to mine when I was a 14-year-old there are some things that stick with you as you get a little bit older. But for sure and he is super responsible he is pretty perceptive, more than other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the thing I respect about you is you can kind of like sit in the corner of the room and no one knows you're there, but you're paying attention to everything. And then you drop a question or a comment and it's like, oh, john's here and also he just changed my life with that thing that he said. Is that your 14 year old? I'm not sure that's me.
Speaker 2:But, uh, that is you, michael me, but he's getting there. That is you.
Speaker 1:Michael, is that John? He's getting there.
Speaker 4:I would say that that is a pretty fun description that lines up with a lot of my experience Great.
Speaker 2:So let's say that's my personality.
Speaker 2:Let's say I've got a kid who's different than me, so way more in tune with feelings, way more in tune and and the give and take that goes from those interactions.
Speaker 2:So, as a parent, how do I have a hard conversation or a shaping conversation with a personality that's different than me about spiritual things? Because, as a dad, spiritual things matter to me and I want them to matter to my kids. Yeah, yeah, that's what the church the church could be a gigantic resource for parents in that kind of a way, just to simply say, hey, john, we know you're a knucklehead sometimes, but you got to talk to your kid about this. Here's some tools to help you do that. Tremendous, it's a game changer. I love what happens on sunday night at youth group or wednesday night youth group is a big deal. But, as a parent, having tools and resources that help my life the other six days of the of the week but, like I said, total game changer yeah, well, we'll get into all of that with ann and I'm excited to hear what she has to say about all of that.
Speaker 1:Into all of that with Anne, and I'm excited to hear what she has to say about all of that. But first, john, we have a tradition here on Beyond the Event it's called the mailbag, where we answer questions, the student, pastors, the people they want to know, you know, and we give the people what they want. So, michael, take it away.
Speaker 4:So, brad, in the Facebook group you posted a picture with mailman tim I did and matt tibbett said the mailman tim pic got me hyped, only to let me down, bradley sorry, matt further down the comment section, ryan bennett also added that we should try and get tim onto the podcast sometime to catch up with him and see what he's been up to. I think those are fun ideas, but this makes me think of a question that I don't know has been asked.
Speaker 1:So this is a mailbag question from Michael.
Speaker 4:From me.
Speaker 1:Oh fun. Thanks for writing in, michael. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4:Which Tim is your favorite? Tim, oh man, caveman, I was also thinking about Caveman Tim.
Speaker 2:I think who was the first? Was Spaceman the first?
Speaker 4:Spaceman was very early on. So Spaceman Tim was my freshman year of high school, I think.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I think he might have been. Did we do Mailman then Space man, or did we do Space man then Mailman? I can't remember Space man for me. I don't remember Space man was fun. Space man was very fun Because he did the interlude dance too, space man was very fun.
Speaker 1:In outer space space man. I'm sticking with caveman. Um, I feel like that was a later rendition where they were like he's had some careers. Now let's put him in another.
Speaker 4:You know, time, it's all it's it's almost like we ran out of ideas for, like jobs uh, that have the word man in it, and we just had to come up with something else yeah, I also, you know, like I, after I graduated high school, I didn't get to go to move for several years, and then 2017 was when we had caveman tim and I was an event staff for engage.
Speaker 4:was that one week of move in the middle of the summer? Um, and as someone that was a little more advanced in years than when I was in high school, I was able to appreciate, um, the, the 10 characters, in a way that I don't think I knew how to appreciate when I was a student. He was the best man. Caveman Tim was a fun one, but I'm pretty sure I I really think spaceman Tim was was my freshman year, so that's one of the ones that I that I remember the most quickly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, tim was great to work with all those years, all those years, all those years, and we miss him. So we have a question from Matt Berry. Again, thank you, matt, for all of your questions. It's like reading a book we might publish it and Matt wants to know what do you wish you would have known or heard about leadership when you were younger, and what should we be telling our students now?
Speaker 2:So the question really is when I was younger, back in high school or middle school?
Speaker 1:that's the question that he's asking yeah, when you were in student ministry.
Speaker 4:Or maybe even when you first started out in a leadership role.
Speaker 2:Hmm, first started out in a leadership role.
Speaker 2:Hmm, I will let me say this, let me go with um when I was in high school. Okay, I wish I would have known. Uh, I wish I would have learned to ask better questions. Be a little more curious. Whatever you want to go, ted lasso's version be a little more curious. Curious, um, and just asking people that I've respected better questions. I think I think I was a pretty observant kid. Well, I'm one of those people who learns. You know, if I watch you and you fail, I'll be like, oh, don't do that, you know. Or if I watch you and you succeed, I'm like, oh, maybe I should, yeah try that, let's do that.
Speaker 2:I've been one of those kind of people and probably did a little bit too much of that, just observing and not necessarily asking great questions, specifically in high school, middle school, when it comes to hey, why'd you make that decision? Or hey, why'd you have that conversation, you know, I think that I think that would have been a little. That's super helpful to learn from people who've already made mistakes or celebrated big, gigantic wins. Ask great questions.
Speaker 1:We've never talked about this before, but I'm going to talk about it with you right now.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:When I was an intern at Journey Christian Church in Greeley Colorado um, it was the spaceman Tim year, because I later dressed up as spaceman Brad and filmed some follow up videos. Uh so, but we went to Colorado. Did you ever direct Colorado?
Speaker 2:we went to.
Speaker 1:Colorado. You were the director and the guy that I work for. Terry Davis said John is one of the best leaders that you'll ever meet and you need to ask him a bunch of questions. And he set up a lunch and we sat down at lunch in Durango, colorado, and I need to ask him a bunch of questions. And he set up a lunch and we sat down at lunch in Durango, colorado, and I got to just like pick your brain about a bunch of stuff and I took notes.
Speaker 1:I don't know where that journal is but it's like I remember being like what do I ask? I don't know, you know like, but that is such a good skill, Just not you know like, knowing what to ask and asking people who are ahead of you and, um, cause, I didn't know to do that and I didn't know how to do that, but he, Terry, pushed me to do that, which I'm thankful for. But yeah, you probably don't remember that.
Speaker 2:Maybe I do, I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that that's funny the way you said reminded me of that, though I haven't thought about that in years. So that's funny the way you said reminded me of that, though I haven't thought about that in years. Great advice, though Good stuff. You ready to go talk to Ann? Yeah, Okay, let's go talk to Ann. Ann Wilson welcome back to Beyond the Event.
Speaker 3:So happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Welcome back. The last time that you were here was a long time ago. I feel like we talked about mental health. It was a great, great, great, great conversation. We're going to do a different thing today. How are you? You doing good.
Speaker 3:Doing great. Christmas time is here.
Speaker 1:Christmas time is here in this life, in the life where people are listening to this. It is 2025. The Christmas trees are away.
Speaker 3:It was doing wonderful.
Speaker 1:So we're going to have to vibe check that a little bit, but that's okay, that's all right. I feel like the listeners deserve to know. You were just in Joplin. You were just here at our board meeting. You're a member of our board and you were so busy that we were not able to make this happen while you were literally in the same city as us. So here we are, on zoom making it happen, talking about next gen ministry. It's going to be so fun, okay. So the setup to this is you were um over the student ministry at Trader's Point Christian Church. Going back to when. When did that?
Speaker 3:start. Let's see. I've been at Trader's Point almost 12 years. The first five years I was in our marketing communications team and before coming to Trader's Point I was a youth pastor. So, I'll just say I had a super linear career, but then in 2018, I joined our students team and in 2019, I stepped into the lead role.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I've been leading the students team since 2019, and at Trader's Point I'm going to say this and then I want you to polish it up, correct me, whatever you got to do. Like the ministries that would typically fall under like a next gen or family ministry category were kind of like doing their own things. Like you had an elementary ministry that was kind of like functioning on its own student ministry that was kind of functioning on its own preschool. Is that right? Would you say? That's true.
Speaker 3:I would say so. When we went multi-site in 2015,. I would say the age group that got probably the most lost was preteen, because it went back and forth from students to kids, and then we learned really quickly we needed a lot more strategy around that, and so it really did become Trader's Point kids, which was birth through sixth grade, and students, which was seventh through 12th grade. So, but they were separate teams for sure.
Speaker 1:And then a year ago this is exciting for you, congratulations you became the next gen pastor. This is exciting for you, congratulations you became the next-gen pastor at Trader's Point and now you oversee birth all the way up through 12th grade, right? Yep, that's right, okay. So I am hoping out of our conversation today that we can kind of encourage youth pastors, or primarily people who are listening to this podcast, that having kind of a cohesive strategy for that entire age group is important and that it does have benefits. So what was kind of like the road that led Trader's Point to going away from the model that they were in and then having you kind of oversee all of these different things?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, honestly, a lot of it came from years of collaboration with Traders Point Kids and Traders Point Youth. That it sort of happened, naturally, where it just made sense to have one department where we all worked together, helped each other. But I would say for me that personally began even just in my first ministry. I was a youth pastor at a church here in Indianapolis on the west side of town and the kids pastor at the time wanted to work with me so much and I was just so confused by that. I was like I'm here with the teenagers, you're there with the kids, I have nothing to offer you. But she had a vision for what family ministry could be that I didn't yet have. And working with her for those four years really, I think, prepared me for then when I went back into students years later, yeah, having a just knowing what was missing because we weren't together.
Speaker 1:So okay, so what was missing?
Speaker 3:though you know like what was missing I would say a unified strategy to reach parents.
Speaker 3:Um, and then that played into a lot of different things that, honestly, maybe if you were looking at it from afar, wouldn't have seemed like, oh, those are way different, like they're operating totally differently.
Speaker 3:But if you got sort of in the weeds, we just had different approaches to the way that we communicated with parents, to the way that we led events, and again, neither good nor bad, but because we were working with the same families right, it's like needed to be more unified and then, in addition to that, just more proactive in the ways that we are reaching, resourcing, helping parents. The data shows that the church is probably like the third most important voice in a young person's life, behind parents and friends, and so often, so much of our kids ministry strategy and youth ministry strategy is around the kids in front of us and the students in front of us. But the people we really need to reach the most are the parents. And again, nothing was inherently wrong. It was just separate and we knew that we could do more together so, like john, you have three boys age range 14 to 19 14 to 19, been a part of a lot of churches.
Speaker 1:So, um, at different like. Do you resonate with that at all? Like, is that something that is like familiar to you, where it's like oh, I have one kid in children's ministry and one kid in youth ministry and the ways that I relate to these two ministries are entirely different, or is that not like, I don't know?
Speaker 2:for sure. I think I've never been in an's church before, so I don't have that context, but been in several different ones and and communicating and connecting with parents is definitely a struggle for the average youth pastor. The older you get, the more of a reality it is. You've got to learn that skill. When you're young. You know you're wanting to have fun and attract students and tell them about Jesus and be honest with them and you know walk through scripture with them and sometimes sometimes people discount that maybe, maybe this is the right way to say that or just don't see the value of having parents on your team.
Speaker 2:But being in a healthy environment like Anne's describing. Uh for sure, as a parent, we're in a church that that works hard at at that and it's been super helpful, super beneficial, just in in as a parent walking through spiritual growth steps with your kids. I got three boys. With my three boys I've been super helpful that you can see the win of a church doing it. I've had that experience and it's been a very positive one for us.
Speaker 1:So we'll go ahead. Nope, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I think, just inherently the wiring of a kid's pastor and a youth pastor. Now I'm going to speak in generalities here, so I know there are exceptions to this, but they compliment one another so much and they help each other so much, and so when they work separately, it really is to their own detriment and the family's detriment that they're not like helping each other out. So a real practical example of this was when we started doing a unified process for camp check-in, which sounds like the most boring example. But kids pastors I mean they had that on lock. As far as safety check, bag check I mean, the line was so efficient.
Speaker 3:Youth pastors had the vibes down right. It felt exciting. When you walked in, you were like I think this might be the best week of my life, but you couldn't say the same vice versa with the other things. And so when we this year, the kids and youth team, did that together and it really was magical for lack of a better word of just I year, the kids and youth team did that together and it really was magical, for lack of a better word of just I mean we had parents being like, wow, I feel like I just went through the airport in a really good way, you know, like of just a very efficient process that was clear kids and youth were going to be safe, but also felt really great too, and so I'd say the same.
Speaker 3:I'm in a multi-site context, but I think it's true in a small church context or one large church context of kids and youth, people have a lot to give each other and just the way that they're wired, the way their brains think, the way they operate, that I think has been missing at times and in all of my ministry experiences that's not just unique to Trader's Point. I know I learned so much from Allison, who was the kid's pastor at the first church I served at, even just about parent communication, and it had not occurred to me to be as proactive as she was at camp with parent communication. We worked on that together. So there's just a lot of things I think that can mutually benefit each other.
Speaker 1:So when you stepped into this role a year ago it's only been a year brand new, fresh. What's at the top of the list? What are the first things that you're wanting to get in place and moving and shaking and trying to influence this culture that you're talking about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the first was that we identified we were losing both kids and youth in transitions, and so when I say transitions, I just mean those vulnerable ages where someone is making a change, and that's often when parents are thinking about parenting the most right. It's like the time when your kid is going to kindergarten for the first time, or when you have a new baby and you bring them to the nursery for the first time, or they're going to middle school or they're graduating. Most parents are reflecting in those moments on like am I a good parent? So not only were we missing that opportunity to help come alongside parents, but also we weren't cohesive in the way that we made sure students were not dropping off kids and youth. And so really practically the first thing that we looked at as a whole team was that preteen age and asking okay, traders Point Kids is doing this for preteens, traders Point Youth, we're trying to catch preteens in this way. Our numbers in that age are dwindling, which means real people are leaving, and in Trader's Point kids those numbers were dwindling. It's like how can we meet in the middle of what could be and how can we retain that age that we know is just really vulnerable? Our solution was one that surprised all of us, which was for us and this is for our context we have youth on Wednesday nights, so we don't use the building on Sunday mornings for youth ministry. But the solution for us was how about we invite sixth graders to both experiences all year long to help with the transition from kids to youth, and that started in August, so that was kind of the first age we decided to target. If you will of like, we need to make this better. There will be more in the next year or so. I don't want to say a ton and like scare my team, no, but we're really looking at babies as well.
Speaker 3:And then graduated seniors, young adults, those just vulnerable transitory times where people are, yeah, asking all kinds of questions. For new parents, they're obviously it's like how can we capture the beauty of the church, even though they're just dropping them off from the nursery? Like, how can we tell the story of what it means for you and your family to be a part of this church family for the next 18 years? We're missing that right now. And then for graduated seniors, similarly and this is a tale as old as time right, it's like the young adult question continues to be really hard to figure out, but that's not an excuse. So I'm doing a ton of work there right now to help make things better.
Speaker 3:So for us, yeah, the first year 12 months really I started this role in August of 2023, but it was just, yeah, a ton of discovery around what's not working, what's going really well, what do you love about what you do? I had one-on-ones with every kid's pastor and just asked them to come with a story of what gets you up to do what you do. What do you love about what you do and what is really really hard right now. And it became really clear from even those one-on-ones that sixth grade was burdening all of them because they're seeing their sixth graders drop off and then, similarly, with youth pastors, we're seeing how hard it is to then get them back after they've dropped off.
Speaker 1:So I think a lot of this is. This is what that made me think of. I think a lot of children's ministers and youth pastors are overworked and have a lot on their plates and, um, you're talking about like a really really highly collaborative environment, which I think is really cool. I think there are a lot of youth pastors in you know, maybe smaller contexts or whatever. It's like I have so much stuff on my plate and the children's pastor at the same church is thinking I have so much stuff on my plate and the children's pastor at the same church is thinking I have so much stuff on my plate and this all feels like extra work. You know what I mean. It's like okay, now I have to dedicate all of this mental space to figuring out how to collaborate really well for this transition time or whatever.
Speaker 3:Is that something you ran into, or was everybody really like open-handed and great about it, or Well, just like any change, there's people that are like, yes, wahoo, which I would say is typical for a youth pastor personality, right, like, not all of them. But and then because of the scale of what kids pastors have to manage weekly, which is just quite frankly larger and different and more complex, the ages, I mean, the needs of a baby with a diaper are way different than the needs of a fifth grader. So, because of the complexities of what they manage, I think for kids pastors it might've been more overwhelming, but not in a way where they were resistant to change, I think. For me, I approached it like any change, where it was like what is the problem we're trying to solve and is this a burden you're carrying? And then, if that is true, people usually want to get on board to change it and will do what they need to to carve out time in their week.
Speaker 3:The other thing I would say too is I think all of this was in the spirit of wanting to work smarter, not harder, and that sounds cliche, probably, but it's like if you and your kids pastor are sharing a parent strategy, guess what that means? You're probably going to do half the work that you've been doing Like cause, if you guys can map out. Okay, here's our yearly communication strategy for parents. I'll do the youth one, you do the kids one. You know, but you're learning from each other, you're borrowing templates or language or you know all those things. You're just sharing the work instead of adding more work. Now, there, there are ways to do it. That would make it more complicated for you, for sure, but I think if you go in with the posture of like, I have a lot to gain from working with my kids pastor, my youth pastor, you guys can do a lot of good together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So I live up here all the time. John is like the king of strategic thinking, number one strategy guy, super practical. No, that's true, john, don't say no to me. So I'm interested in what's going through your head right now. What are the thoughts, what are the questions?
Speaker 2:I totally agree with what he is saying. It seems like it may be one work, but it's not. The fact that you have people who are great at I mean, her sign up for camp process is a perfect template. There are people who know how to do the process and people who know how to make it fun, and when you put the two of them together, you're going to come up with a better end result and experience for all the parties. There's a lot of those kind of things that most I'll speak in generalities too. Most youth teams and children's teams don't work together because of something that's happened in the past or because of a big personality conflict?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of those two reasons. So for that reason we don't work together when in reality some of what we can do is be a great example of conflict resolution on our teams and figure out what's the best way for us to serve the whole family and creating continuity in communication. Registration, all check-in, all those processes just make sense in the world. No one wants to do three different types of check-in through the same church, even if they switch age groups. No one wants to do that. That's not as a parent. No, I'm tired of registering different ways. Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think what you you've just hit on it, john, in that the hardest part of all of this is the people stuff. Right, it's not necessarily the strategy or the execution, but it's everyone coming to the table. Um, a book that was very helpful for me in all of this was no ego by cy wakeman. Um, I don't know if you guys have read that, but there's a lot in there of just like how, if everybody comes to the table with wanting the thing to be better and letting go of your pride, what you've held onto so dearly, then you can work toward the good of the whole family.
Speaker 3:So, with sixth grade, for example, like there could have been people that said, well, why do we need to make a change? It's amazing in kids. Like, what are you saying by this? Or there could have been youth pastors that said, well, why do we need to add them to youth? Like, what are you saying? We can't get seven. You know all those ego questions that come up when you start a change and honestly, I'm just really really proud of both of our teams because in that and some other changes we're talking through, people really have come to the table with we want this to be better. We want parents to know Jesus, to fall in love with the church and for their kids to do the same. So what is holding families back from that right now? And let's knock those barriers down.
Speaker 1:It's good stuff. So, with the people stuff, cause this is really fascinating to me. It's like you've got to and I don't it's hard to like engage in this conversation in a very public forum, cause it's like I want to ask very specific questions but I don't want you to like you know I'm not asking you to throw anybody on your team under the bus or anything like that but I am curious, like how do you? Because, john's right, all these people have histories together, like these are people that have have worked together on various things and been in the same offices, and sometimes those relationships are great and sometimes those relationships are not great. So, like what are those tenants that you try to keep like right at the front of everybody's? Like you're talking about the thing? What is the thing? You know what I mean? What is the unifying force behind all of that that everyone's kind of marching toward at Trader's Point?
Speaker 3:Well, I think I'll just back up. So, assuming that the people on the other end of this are either in youth ministry or around youth ministry, I think one of the things that was I had against me sort of from the beginning was that it was so clear as day that I was a youth person. Like I yeah, even when I started my role, I still continued to oversee the youth team. Um, so I was a little bit in a dual role and so nobody was confused about like where my passion lied Right, which then, naturally, is going to make people skeptical of like what could she know, possibly, about kids ministry? How could she possibly help us with?
Speaker 1:anything, she's always going to act in the primary interest of the student's team and not of the kid's team, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes. So a lot of it was telling myself like I don't need to prove myself, but I do need to go in very curious and admitting what I don't know and admitting what I don't know. And so I really did feel like I was on a curiosity tour for three months of just learning everything I possibly could. For me and the way that I lead that meant that I needed to serve in all of the environments to really know what it looks like to be a kid's pastor on a weekly basis and very quickly I learned I know very little and that was incredibly helpful. I started hosting in our fourth through sixth grade environment in elementary and that was very eye-opening of just again. I have been used to a youth context where we're putting on one service per week. Maybe there's middle school and high school in some environments. There's a lot of small groups, there's a lot of different things, but a kids pastor is, even in a small context, way more complicated of a just weekly rhythm and so right away just made me very humble, like I hope, of just admitting what I don't know. And so I would say for the youth pastors or leaders who are either stepping into a role where you're overseeing all of those areas or you're just seeking to collaborate as peers go in, assuming you know very little and you have a ton to learn. I think that's where I've made mistakes in the past. Thankfully I'd made enough of those before I got into this role to know better. But just going in knowing I have so much to learn about this and I can't wait to be taught. Um, and then I changed my mind as time went on, about things that maybe I had assumed or didn't know, about things that maybe I had assumed or didn't know. So, yeah, I mean the people stuff is where it all both is the hardest but also the best, because really I just believe so deeply in like, when everybody can bring their gifts to the table, everybody wins.
Speaker 3:And so I mean, even as we were thinking through sixth grade, we did it as a whole next gen team and we broke up into teams with kids and youth on each thing and just said, okay, we launched with an event of like sixth grade at Trader's Point and we could have so easily I could have gone off in my office somewhere, designed that event and just said this is what we're going to do, everybody, but I knew they're the ones that are going to have to believe in this. So we got to come up with this together and they're going to have to work on it together. So we designed the event in real time together as kids and youth pastors. Kids pastors offered unique perspective youth pastors needed, and vice versa, and then they executed that together. So they both were the public face of it. They both had speaking roles at their campuses. Similarly, we're doing Super Start together this year as kids and youth teams, and so same same like.
Speaker 3:I went in assuming this is what this should probably look like, and so, instead of saying that, I asked okay, we're going to approach superstar a little bit differently. We've grown, our team has grown and, unsurprisingly, the kids team had so much to offer that we changed. I mean, I we aren't doing anything that I thought we should do, to be clear, but I have a question.
Speaker 1:I have a question Did Superstar used to live in kids, or students Kids? They used to live in kids, so now it's like a more collaborative Got it, got it, got it. Okay, go ahead Continue.
Speaker 3:Well, no. So yeah, I lived in kids and this year our kids and youth pastors will oversee it together at their campus, which again, I'm in a multi-site context. But I think same is true if you're in a one campus, like church model of is there someone that's taking the primary lead and is there a way that you guys can share ownership of that? That makes it messier with decision-making. Right, you got to battle things out sometimes if one of you has a preference towards something, but I think sometimes we go too easy to oh no, that should just be in kids to make the people stuff easier. Instead of like what is best for the sixth grader, the best thing for the sixth grader and the parent is for them to see the name and face they see every week. That makes them feel comfortable and familiar fourth through sixth grade, which is their kid's pastor, and for the incoming into youth to see the person that they're going to be led by in the youth pastor, and for the parents to get to know both at the same time okay.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like uh, a a like a huge part of your role in this first year and I apologize if I'm mischaracterizing this you tell me is kind of fostering trust between kids, students, uh, uh, in in yourself, with each other, all of these things, um, which I think is a really, really cool thing. But I want to circle back to something that you said, which is you were talking about kind of a I'm going to call it a perception issue, where it's like, oh, ann is the student's pastor, so she is going to be in this made up world where kids and students are against each other. She is going to be on the side of the of the students team, right, and it's like I'm curious how you dispel that. You know what I mean. Like you talked about listening a lot and everything, but if somebody has that in their mind that like we do it this way and they are going to come and impose their way on us, then you're automatically so at least one party is in like a defensive posture in that situation.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. So I'm imagining, like even at a smaller church, there's one student pastor and one kid, one kid's pastor, and the student pastor is really bought into this and has to go approach the children's pastor and say, hey, how do we work together in order to make this better. That conversation could be perceived as like oh well, this person thinks that I'm bad at my job and that they need to come in and, you know, help me, or whatever it is so like, how does all of that? What's the right way to approach that conversation and navigate those things?
Speaker 1:And I know you kind of said that, but I want to really dig into that because that in my mind, if I'm like imagining how I would react in these situations, I feel like those first weeks would be like the hardest part of trying to like make something happen and get the ball rolling and get people like bought into something like what you're trying to do.
Speaker 3:For sure. Well, I think, yeah, there's a lot that I could say. I think one of the easiest ways to begin working together is to work together, and so, woohoo, I'm so smart.
Speaker 1:You are so smart.
Speaker 3:I know. But instead of theorizing like, hey, what if we, you know, in some, yeah, ethereal dream that might not be able, it's like hey, sixth grade, we got to. Hey, sixth grade, we gotta fix sixth grade. Like, I think, by bringing vision and strategy down to real, practical examples. It forced us to work together and the mission was too important that we didn't have time for the emotional waste of all the like.
Speaker 3:Oh, this person stepping on my is like um, that was one of the and I didn't use that phrase a lot because it can sound kind of offensive but Cy Wakeman. So she actually studies like healthcare industries, so it's not about ministry at all, but she found that a lot of companies are spending I think it was like almost 30% of their time work-wise and emotional waste. And as soon as I saw that, I was like and which is all ego driven, uh, this person can't tell me what to do. This person doesn't know, or why don't? Why isn't my voice matter? Like all that stuff Right and much more eloquent if you just read the book yourself. But, um, I just really quickly was like how can we make sure that the mission is so important that we don't have time for that we don't have time to spend in that land of like we've got by August to make some decisions. And then, similarly with Superstart, it's like we need to be ready by December to execute a different play. So let's work together and then, as those one-on-one conversations pop up and I think part of that is just creating a really safe environment where people know that you're for them and then checking in.
Speaker 3:But honestly, whether I liked it or not, trust for some people was built really easily and then for some it had to be proven over time and I'm just seeing that I was for both, that I cared just as much when something went wrong in kids that impacted all of them as I did in youth. So some of that was just proven action and interaction over time and being really mindful that every time I made a decision that would impact kids or that I missed things. Because there were a couple of things I missed because I wasn't thinking. Like we were in the middle of a building project and I got asked. Well, long story short, someone made a decision that impacted doors and nursery hallways.
Speaker 3:I won't bore you with the details, but I heard that in a meeting and was like that seems not right, but I don't know. Well, it turns out it was very wrong and so it impacted the kids team and the kids person at that campus a ton and I had to go back around and say I am really sorry, I really messed that up because I did not know the importance of that. And then, from there on out, I actually took myself out of a meeting that where those decisions were made, cause I was like I'm the least knowledgeable. We need a kids operations person in that room, not me. So, yeah, we changed some things around to make sure that I stopped.
Speaker 3:I didn't make mistakes, and again, that comes from. I'm not trying to make myself the hero of this, but it's like if my ego would have driven me, I would have been prone to cover up my mistake to make sure everybody knew that I was just as knowledgeable about kids as I was, you know. And it's like the truth is is that I'm not, and so I need smarter people around me to help me know what I don't know.
Speaker 1:I love it. You keep talking about sixth grade. I want to talk about sixth grade Cause I love the idea of just like you're like hey, don't dream about it, just do it, just work together.
Speaker 3:And you've referenced this this, but while you dream, do the work. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fair enough. So sixth grade is a hard time. I feel like every church puts it in a different. Like some churches sixth grade is kids ministry, some churches sixth grade is, uh, middle school ministry. And you know like even with superstar, we deal with this. Like it feels like every church has a different rule about who they bring to superstar. Like some just bring their sixth graders, some just bring their fourth and fifth graders, some bring fourth, fifth and sixth. Like it's just kind of like all over the map where that you refer to them as like they were getting lost, that lost age group falls. So I think as like a case study on this idea of next gen ministry, uh, it's really apt of you to to continue to bring up that that kind of sixth grade year. So how have and you may, I don't know, you're only a year in, right, but like, have you been able to see any wins in that yet? Has there been any really encouraging stuff come out of that yet for you?
Speaker 3:Has there been any really encouraging stuff come out of that yet for you? Yeah, I'm looking for the actual stats right now so that I don't make stuff up, but there was something like I'm going to go lower so that I don't exaggerate at least 20% of an increase in sixth grade on Sunday mornings than the year before. Part of that. I mean, there's a lot of different layers to that. Our kids team has worked a ton on making sure that experience is amazing and they've added a ton to that. But then also it got a ton of attention and we talk about the other in each environment, right. So it's like at midweek, which is our Wednesday night youth environment, we make sure to like talk at a campus level to each other, kids and youth pastors working together to encourage and invite the one to the other. So, yeah, attendance increased for sure. But then I would say what it did anecdotally and what I think will pay off for years to come, is that it made.
Speaker 3:It's a permanent thing that makes youth and kids have to be very aware of each other and mindful of each other and work hard together, because it's like we share this grade. Now you know, and um again, that doesn't practically work in every context. I know that, but I do think if there are things that kids and youth I mean, there are so many opportunities for you to share events, so, like right now, one of the things that we're talking about is doing a parent and technology event at our campuses, and before so it came up in youth, but we know it's a relevant conversation in kids, right? It's like every parent is thinking about technology, whether it's when should I allow my preschooler to watch a movie for the first time? When should I give my kid a phone?
Speaker 3:You know it's like every parent is thinking about that, and so we could just do that in youth and talk about smartphones, or we could do that with both. So we're going to do that in youth and talk about smartphones, or we could do that with both, um, so we're going to do that with both. That is going to mean it will probably take longer to decide what we're going to do. That means it'll add a few more layers of complication, I'm sure, and it will be so much better and more effective for our parents to know like we are thinking about the things that you're thinking about, and we want to help be a resource for you that you can trust. Um, I don't know if that answers your question, but it.
Speaker 1:Uh, it did, I love it, yeah, I love it. Um, hey, we've been chatting a long time and I feel like, uh, this conversation has kind of made my brain motion some ways, because you're so smart and have so many great things to say. So I want to kind of wind it down just a little bit. I have one more question. I'm curious, john, how are you feeling? You got anything? You've been quiet over there.
Speaker 2:You have any questions for Ann? Questions for Ann.
Speaker 4:Yeah, anne, I do have questions, oh here we go, john, if you have a question can you pull? That mic closer.
Speaker 2:So let's pretend that I'm working at Trader's Point and I'm a children's pastor. Let's pretend I'm a children's pastor, yeah, and I've been there for a real long time. I crush it. I got a good system. I got a good system. I got a good rhythm. I do the same thing every year. You know kind of been doing it for a while. This works real well. You want to bring in a new junior high high school people and have me work on things with them? Tell me, help me understand why I should listen to them. What's that? What is that Hoorah moment you create for that team that says I know what you do is good, but if, if, we can do this together, it's better. Help me have that conversation, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think the first thing I would do if I was that youth pastor is to make sure that I was serving in kids ministry so that, before I asked them to be a part of anything I wanted to do, I was a part of their world, and then vice versa. I think the first thing I would ask that kids pastor to be a part of would be something easy like check in at a youth event. Right, it's like, hey, I could really use your brain and your help in this smaller thing and then I would follow up with them of what did you notice? What are things that stood out to you? And very quickly. I mean, a person like that, who has that much tenure, is going to be very thoughtful in the feedback they have from you.
Speaker 3:Everything from you had no allergy friendly options to this. You know, building was an ADA compliant to. Hey, I felt like you could have something more tangible in your teach moment that actually helped kids stay engaged. I would learn from them first and all the things that they have to offer, before I would say I need you to do this a different way, and then I would say, hey, I've been thinking a ton about this thing. That feels, from my perspective, like it could be better, because it was again. It wasn't like sixth grade was broken, right, we weren't going to anybody and saying you're doing a bad job, that wasn't true. It was just like we know this can be better, we know Superstar can be better and it would be better if we had the way that you think and the way that you do what you do a part of it.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think one of the most powerful and this is such a small thing, but it's big is, over the last year, just being more mindful, both of us that we are serving in each other's spaces and so, like, at our Plainfield campus, our kids pastor serves in the guest experience team, basically at our youth every Wednesday night, and so for parents, I mean that's huge. When a sixth grade, seventh grade parent comes to drop off their kid, they see Danielle, they know Danielle. At the same time, danielle can offer the youth pastor, ryan, feedback that he really, really needs. And then vice versa, he served at Superstar, he went to kids camp. So like they became a team because they were also working at each other's spaces and actually doing the hard stuff I don't think anybody wants to hear from like an ivory tower on high right. It's like you want to hear from somebody who's been in it with you, and that's what I would encourage.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that and I think that is a lovely note to end on. You use the word mindful quite a bit and I was hoping you would drop a demure in there somewhere. I know that that's over. I know that we've moved on from that, but yeah, no, it's over, but I still wanted it to happen and I can't explain it.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:It's okay, I don't even know what that word means and you're wonderful. Thank you for being on our board, thank you for being an excellent next-gen pastor and thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you guys. Thanks for even beginning the conversation. I think it's a really important one for youth pastors to have, and I do have a lot of regrets about the ways I did youth ministry in the beginning, but one of the biggest ones was that I didn't honestly like tap into the children's pastor more. She could have helped me in a lot more ways than I even knew, so yeah, that's a great.
Speaker 1:That's a great. If there's one thought to kind of take away from this conversation, I feel like that might be it that we work together, we're better together, right? Thanks so much, Anne, appreciate you.
Speaker 3:Thank you guys, and I feel like that might be it that we work together, we're better together, right?
Speaker 1:Uh, thanks a bunch and appreciate you. Thank you guys. Um, I'm super, super grateful for Ann and all of the the wise, wise, wise things that that she said. And you know what wise, wise, wise things that she said. And you know what, john. Mr Practical, I'm not as in the weeds on the practical stuff as you are. You love being practical. What's the number one thing that Ann said that you're like yes, if everybody did this, it would be a step in the right direction. Help each other out, help each other out. Volunteer in kids ministry. Just a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah, oh, I love that. Yeah, serve, that's a good, it's a good step forward. It was a good conversation, john, appreciate you being here. I'm going to ask that you close out our time together by reading our blessing over our listeners.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Our prayer today is may God show you grace and bless you. May he make his face shine on you. May you experience the love of Christ, through whom God gives you the fullness of life. May you experience the love of Christ, through whom God gives you the fullness of life. May you be strengthened by his power. May Christ himself make his home in your heart, that you would be full of his love and grace and that those you serve would see Jesus in you today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, Warren Bryan and myself.
Speaker 1:I want to give another huge thank you to Ann Wilson for being with us today. Thanks to John for being with us today. Be sure to tune back in in a couple of weeks. I don't remember what we're doing in a couple of weeks, but we'll have an episode and it's going to be great. Hope that your Christmas and New Year's festivities with your families were wonderful. This has been a great start to 2025 with you guys. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and you know you can reach out to us on the Facebook group, the CYY Community Facebook group, or by email at podcast at CYYcom. We'll see you next time.