Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE3.17: Joel Harney on Combating Cynicism in Ministry
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Hello, this is Brad Warren and you are listening to Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. Today's episode is going to be a lot of fun. Guy that I really respect and really like is going to be joining us today. His name is Joel Harney. If you recognize that name, it might be because he is one of CIY's favorite people to work with. He does not work here at 2201 North Main Street in Joplin, but he does a lot of work alongside of us, so it's possible that you've been to an event that has been directed by Joel.
Speaker 1:It's possible that this summer you will go to an event that's directed by Joel and you'll have a lot of fun with him, I promise. But his day job is even cooler than that. He's a youth pastor at Community Christian Church in Fort Scott, kansas. He has over a decade of youth ministry experience I think he's in year 13 at this point and is just a really spirit-led, insightful and just what is the word I'm looking for Like a very thoughtful person about all things youth ministry and I'm so pumped for you guys to hear what he has to say. So let's go over to my conversation with Joel. Joel, thank you so much for coming on Beyond the Event.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man Appreciate you being here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:You are the first person to be on this show, so we've had a bunch like this is the end of the third season, so I don't know. We've had 40 or 50 episodes or something and I think you're the first person. I'll have to look back, but I think you're the first person who's come on the show, who directs move events, who is not on staff at Christ in Youth, which I think is kind of funny.
Speaker 2:So I want to ask you about that.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you about what? Is it like to be on staff with us for a week? Because I know, that things are insane at A Week in Move and I'm kind of preparing all year long for that. I want to know for you, joel Harney, youth pastor, when I walk into a week and move and all of a sudden I'm in charge for a week, what does that feel like? Because I have no concept of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, I think, no matter what, whether your full-time job is is with ciy, or whether you're in a contracted role, it's, it's just you're drinking from a fire hydrant, no matter what, um, I I mean honestly, I just I consider it a great honor to to even be asked and considered, and it's um, you know, it is something that I consider like this is stewardship, right, and so this, this isn't mine. This, this has been. This was someone else's dream from the beginning. This is a ministry that has impacted hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives.
Speaker 2:Now, at this point, this is, this is something that I, as a high school student, you know, was here and felt God's call into ministry and um, and so it's like, man, I just want to. This baton has been put in my hand. I want to run as well and as hard as I can with it and and make sure that, um, that our team's still winning when I, when I hand it off again, and so, yeah, it's, it's like it's hard. I mean it's hard work. You know that it's. It's like it's hard. I mean it's hard work. You know that it's it's very long days and and sometimes not very much sleep at night and it's uh, it's a lot of. It's a lot of just like prep, like I got to go out on the stage and say things and close up moments and do different things, or I got to lead a team of people that I didn't know before this week that I met on Sunday.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like, well, yeah, I just learned your name, also, I need you to go do this and so, but but I think for me, I've just watched so many great people in that role, even, you know, all the way back to my high school days, but even just as a youth pastor, taking people to those events or having opportunities to rub shoulders with with uh, with a Jason French or Elaine Moss or an Eric Epperson or or whoever those people are who have, just they crush it, and and so all I'm trying to do is say what do they do well and how, how do I replicate that? And so, in that sense, it's like man, I just want to be a great model of what's been modeled to me, and so in that sense it's like man.
Speaker 1:I just want to be a great model of what's been modeled to me. Do you remember the first time you were directing? Because you prepare, you, prepare. You alluded to that Like there are scripts that you have to follow, there are places you have to be and times you have to be there and meetings you have to have, and, like there is an ideal week of move that you prepare for and an ideal week of move, has never happened and never will happen.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the first time that you were like oh crap this is wild, I guess.
Speaker 2:So, like, naturally I'm an improviser, right, I would rather I'd almost rather, and not that I like. I just consider like every day is preparation, so I'm always trying to read something, listen to a podcast, and so I don't know what I'm preparing for. I just know that I'm preparing, but I would say like, as I approach a week of move, I spend more time praying than I do reading through the material that Lane sends out to all of us who direct, and so because of that, I guess I just feel really confident in God's Spirit to guide the moment. And so, whether that's something I got to, I think God's leading me to say this this wasn't in a script, but I think I need to say this.
Speaker 2:Or sometimes it's like man, this wasn't in a script, but I think I need to say this Um or uh, or, or sometimes it's like man, this is not going well and we just gotta. We gotta pivot here. Or I gotta have a conversation with this team member about what do we do differently to make sure this, this improves. And so I guess I've been so, so well coached from other people on like, the unexpected moment is coming, so expect it. It doesn't ever feel that off kilter. It doesn't feel like oh man, my world's in shambles. It's just like yeah, I planned on this, let's roll.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is the only way. That's the only way that you can prep for move is to be like okay, I'm planning for the unexpected 's. The only way that you can prep for move is to be like okay, I'm planning for the unexpected right. And the only way I can do that is to walk in, having spent a lot of time with the father making sure that we're on the same page about this right yeah, yeah, it's, it's murphy's law move is murphy's law.
Speaker 2:Like whatever can happen will happen, and yeah, and so just to be it's, and so it is like it's such a joy, it it. There's there's some labor there, right, there's some, there's some, uh, there's some stress, there's some anxiety, but there's also this profound joy of just like man. I know what it feels like to have the spirit guide me in a moment and know like this wasn't Joel, joel had nothing to do with this Like God just stepped into this moment and did something that I couldn't have planned or prepared for, or gave me something to say, and so I guess I spend my life chasing those moments, Like I want to live a Spirit-filled life, an empowered life, and so because of that, it just feels like Whoa, that was so cool. God, thank you for letting me be a part of this at all. Yeah, and so it. Yeah, it never feels like it's way out there too much. It's just God's going to do something here and I'm I get to watch him do it.
Speaker 1:I'm along for the ride. Yep, yeah, so directing events. Has that? Um? Has that changed your perspective at all as youth pastor, Joel, when you take a group of students to move like, has that affected the way that you experience? Move on that, end of things.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say like one of the benefits that I get is like we'll take our students to a week of move before I go direct one.
Speaker 2:And so from that, so from that seat, like it's awesome to go see a week that that someone else from the CIY office is directing, and it's like last year we were up in Michigan and Lane directed that event and and so even throughout the week he's like he's checking in with me, like hey man, what do you think about this? I know you're headed to this event next, Um, and so that's really helpful. Like you, just you kind of get to be a shadow a little bit and and check in and talk to people and ask a few questions, um, so it's not like there there are some, there are some people not promise, I'm not shooting shots here Like there's some people who just no, I'm kidding Like no matter what, no matter what they're.
Speaker 2:just they walk into weeks that other people create and produce and they're just hypercritical. And they you, you only have eyes to be analytical and you can and you can only be a critic. And that's a temptation for any, like any of us, who do any level of speaking or leading worship or whatever. Like you walk into somebody else's church, it's easier to find things wrong than right. What I, you know, like what I want to be, is I want to be able to offer a good critique without being a critic, and those are two very different things. And so sometimes, when I'm sitting there and I think I know how this moment was written I don't know if it hit that, but I also know what it's like to be the person trying to deliver on that moment, or see how all of these other variables where it's like, man, this didn't go exactly how it could have and so that was a domino effect for how this needs to go next and that's okay.
Speaker 2:and and to then just have this, this greater awareness of so many stories of, yeah, this didn't go well, but look what god did right oh yeah and, and so ultimately it's like, okay, I could walk and do a week of move with a different set of eyes and just be a critic and sit there and be like, well, this isn't right, and this isn't right and this isn't right. Or I could just say, wow, look, how good God is and I got a few things that I might change or adjust on the fly, or when I have the opportunity to do it differently, I might tweak it. But ultimately I'm going to trust, first of all, god's spirit at work in the hearts and minds of people who write this and and who come up with it, and then, second of all, god's spirit at work in the, in the life of the person who's directing this, as I'm, I'm just a part of it and that's. That's the same God who, who maybe speaks to me in small moments, as I have that responsibility.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really cool, but you said something in there and we are going to go on a tangent because it sparked something in me. You're talking about criticism and being critical, and there is because I just want to talk about the role that being a critic and the role that kind of what am I trying to like cynicism almost play in youth ministry. I think there are a lot of youth pastors who struggle with that. Um, that idea of being being a cynic or being overly critical, not, and and it honestly what it does is it inhibits you from being able to experience something Right? Um, and I'm not even talking about move or mix or superstar or whatever.
Speaker 2:I'm just talking about in general, um, even sitting in your own church on a sunday morning, right, yeah, and then even.
Speaker 1:There's another layer of that, too, where I think that some people maybe subconsciously um wear cynicism or being critical as like a badge of honor you know it's it's like this is um, like I'm better than you because I noticed that this is bad, and you're like no one would say that out loud.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, but there is some of that and I wonder why youth pastors in particular struggle with this, and I don't know if you have any insights into that or not, but it's just cause it is. It's kind of rampant. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I struggle with it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, like, I'll, just I'll. I'll be vulnerable, like it's uh, it is easy for me to feel inferior, right, and so there's a lot of, there's a lot of situations that you walk into and especially like the like, the youth ministry world is just like in the other world, um, a lot of it is is just who you know and who you've been connected to, and so, like, my first decade in ministry um was a lot of watching other people that I went to school with get jobs at big churches or step on stages, and so what does that do to your own heart? Well, either I'm not as good as them or I'm doing something wrong, you know. And so you begin to just calibrate yourself towards, I don't know, some bitterness and some jealousy and inferiority.
Speaker 2:But I knew that I never want to ask my way into something. I want to be asked, I want to be asked and and so anything, anywhere I've ever gone to speak um, anywhere I've ever been asked to lead um, I don't try to kick down that door. I want God to open it, and and when. And that gives a, I guess, just a sense of confidence, of like, okay, god's brought me to this, so he, so he's going to provide what I need to say, or to lead or to do whatever. I think there's a lot of us in the youth ministry game who wear their responsibility as a youth pastor as their identity, and so that's I mean. That is a struggle for me, that's a struggle for a lot of us who now you're guarding against your own insecurity. I feel insecure, so I'm going to spend my time talking about everyone else's blemish and not my own and and not my own, and I guess I guess like are you?
Speaker 1:saying as a way to like level the playing field almost yeah it's like, since I feel here, I want to make sure they're coming.
Speaker 2:I'm using hand gestures on a podcast, which makes me an idiot, but you know, I want to bring them down to kind of the level that I'm at right, yeah, right, yeah, even in my subconscious, like if I can, if I can cut their legs out from under them in my own subconscious, then at least I feel a little bit better about myself.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, oh, they're only getting to do this because, or I would be better at this. People just don't know. And it's just such a sour place to be man, it's such a sour place to be, um. And you know, if, if I could just like ask a question as a form of encouragement to any youth pastor or you know anyone listening, like who wins when you're grumpy? You know, no one does, you, don't. You don't win your students, don't win. Um, ciy doesn't win Other other youth pastors you rub shoulders with don't win. Like no one wins when you're grumpy, and God's certainly not called you to that, you know. And so if you found yourself in a position of cynicism, um, and thinking I can only walk in the room with eyes to be critical, um, you know the. The. The church phrase is like check your heart, bro.
Speaker 1:But, but honestly, but what I would, yeah.
Speaker 2:I you know, but, but there's something about that. Where you've got to, you got to first of all realize this has never been about you, right, and and the thing that is that is, um, a refreshing slap in the face for me often is God's going to do what he wanted to do, whether or not I want him to do it that way, and I'm just not that important, and neither are you. We're not that important and I'm reminded of that a lot. We've heroes, and then you grow into Christian maturity and realize like these are pretty messed up, broken people and ultimately none of them do important things.
Speaker 2:God does a lot of important things despite them or somehow through them, and he could have accomplished it in any number of ways. And so to walk into any room with this idea that unless I'm here, this can't go well, or if I were in this position, this would be so much better, it's like man, you're just not that important, you just really aren't, and it doesn't matter. And this is true Like this is true if you're coming from a church where you're the lead guy of a multi-site church and you've got four other youth pastors working for you and you brought 300 kids to the event, or you brought three kids to the event. Like that spirit exists in all kinds of us who wear that youth pastor title, and so I don't know why it's so prevalent. I just know we're not that important and we need to get out of the way to let God do what he wants. Yeah, do his thing.
Speaker 1:It's so funny that you bring that up because at our staff Devo this morning your former youth pastor, john Luzatter, uh led, led our devo and talked a lot about um, like he was in Hebrews 10 and 11 a little bit, and just talking about how we gravitate to Hebrews chapter 11, and this list of people that are, just you know, did incredible and awesome things and they were scumbags. You know like um, but and and just you know, did incredible and awesome things and they were scumbags you know, but and and just the call in that is faithfulness, right, um, but anyway it's fun.
Speaker 1:It's just funny that you bring that up, cause it's my second time hearing it today. It's almost like God wants wants me to do something with that. Um, anyway, thanks for sharing that with us. But, yeah, I agree with you a thousand percent, though I mean cynicism. It's not cool to be a cynic. Lane Moss says that all the time. Cynicism isn't cool. Um, cynicism isn't cool, and that's such a great point that no one wins when you walk into a room and you're like I would do this different.
Speaker 1:I would do this different, I would do this different. I could give that sermon better. I could, you know, fill in the blank with, with whatever thing it is. Um, yeah, lot, lots of chew on there, cause I know you and I are not the only two people, um, who, who struggle with that. So, um, anyway, let's talk about youth ministry a little bit. Uh, that was very heavy. Uh, you are, you are, you've been a youth pastor a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how long now.
Speaker 2:Let's see. I started a part-time youth ministry in 2011.
Speaker 1:Sweet. Okay, so let's call it 13 years.
Speaker 2:Let's call it that.
Speaker 1:That's all right with you, lucky number 13. Can't wait to see what happens. You're a community Christian in Fort Scott great church. A lot of wonderful people have coming out. Come out of that church, um and and yeah, I just I've never been. It's one of those churches. It's really cool Cause it's like I've never been to community Christian in Fort Scott. But, um, I know of its legacy and that's just a really cool thing.
Speaker 1:But you went there expecting not to be the youth pastor, right, and I just want to kind of know that. And now you are a youth pastor again. So I kind of want to hear that whole story, that journey for you. I don't even know if I know what job you thought you were walking into when you moved there.
Speaker 2:Sure, we'll see if I know. Yeah, so my wife and I we were in Dallas, texas, and as a youth minister at Valley View Christian Church in Dallas and we were. It was about four and a half years in and I just had felt the Lord stirring in my heart and very unironically, I guess I would say, we were on the way home. So we've had family that live here in Fort Scott. My wife's aunt and uncle are here and I was on my way home from preaching a wedding here.
Speaker 2:We were driving back to Dallas and my wife and I just started to have this conversation and I had been preaching a little bit more in just different contexts and some outside opportunities, but then just more in our church too, and I was like man, I know, like ultimately I know like God's calling me to use that gifting of preaching. Ultimately I know God's calling me to use that gifting of preaching. And so we just started to have that conversation on the way home from Fort Scott and so we began to pray about some different opportunities and there are some different things that kind of landed in our lap to think about and pray through, and one of those was, a few months later I got a call from our lead guy here and just said hey, I need to hire someone. I don't know for what, I don't know. I don't really know what I'm hiring yet, but he just said you're my first call to see if that was even something you'd be interested in.
Speaker 2:And just for the viewers at home, we're living in the Dallas Metroplex population about 8 million people. Fort Scott is about 8,000 people. There's, no, you know, all of our creature comforts. There was a very sweet window of our life while we were in Dallas, where my wife is a nurse and so she was working nights. We don't have any children at this time and MoviePass had just come out.
Speaker 1:Oh, what a glorious summer.
Speaker 2:And so I had a MoviePass with my best friend there, josh, and uh, and so did he, and, like, we were going to three or four movies a week, yes, at super nice theaters, and that like, and so there's not, there's not a nice movie theater, like, just like anything you could think of. It's like we don't have amenities, right, um, and so, just from like that standpoint, I was like, no, I think, I think I'm good, um, and literally uh, so I hung up the phone and and took some students on a ski trip and this is early 2020, um, and, and so I. There was something about it, though, that I couldn't escape thinking about, and so we just started to pray about it some more, and this is one of those things where it's like, okay, I want to. Ultimately, I just want to be in God's will, right, ultimately, I want to be in the place that God's moving, because if I'm not in that place that he's moving, then that's the worst place to be. Right, I don't want to go based on my wants, I want to go based on his will, and so we just started to pray about it some more, but still just like really, really wrestling with is this right? And sort of.
Speaker 2:In that time the job description began to take place the role of associate minister, and that was, if you know anything about the church world, that's an all-encompassing title, a catch-all Preach sometimes and help with, like I do a lot with our communications team now and, um, at the time it was, it was leading worship like half the time, which is, uh, is like in my toolbox, but not something that I, like, am passionate about doing, right, like I enjoy doing it here and there, but it's not, it's not the thing that gets me up in the morning and so. But there were just like it was kind of this smorgasbord of different responsibilities here at this church that kind of made their way onto a job description. And so we were again. We were praying through it, considering it, talking to some wise people, and, and I I woke up at three or four in the morning one night. This is, this is early February of 2020.
Speaker 2:And I was praying. God woke me up to pray is the only way I know how to say it and I was just like God. I don't know what to do, I don't know even how to weigh this decision, I don't know how to think through this, and so I just like this is like one of those delirious middle of the night moments and I was just like God, would you give my wife a dream about where we're living a year from now? Would you give my wife a dream about where we're living a year from now? There was an opportunity here in Fort Scott. There was something else that was on our radar a little bit, and then there was like maybe we stay in Dallas, and so we wake up early the next morning. It was a Sunday morning. We were both on a worship team that morning at our church, and so she woke up and the first thing out of her mouth was I had a crazy dream last night.
Speaker 1:And you're like what was it?
Speaker 2:Do tell. And I'm like, at this point I'm not, you know, I'm not giving any hints or clues and she's just like we were. We were at my uncle's church in Fort Scott and I had a baby and we were sitting on the back row of the church and the baby wouldn't be quiet and it was just really weird. I was like, okay, forget all the other details. Where, where were we? And she's like we were in Fort Scott, and I said this is going to sound crazy, but last night God woke me up to pray and I just prayed that he would give you a dream about where we're living a year from now. Um, and I think this is God telling us to move to Fort Scott, and, and ultimately it was, and, and what was crazy was what we didn't know at the time, um, and we didn't know until after we'd accepted the position and made our plans to move, that we were pregnant with twins, um, which is just crazy, um, and so God was moving us to a different location for a different season of life, you know. And so, outside of all of, like the ministry ramifications and aspects, like, it was just right for our family. My wife needed to step away from full-time work and we got a lot closer to family who could help support in that season and you know, we already had a daughter at that time, and so we were going to have three very young children, um, all at the same time and and needed some different space and pace to be able to handle that, and God provided that.
Speaker 2:So, when we moved here, um in June of 2020, um, at that time, the church was not meeting in person, which was just bizarre. So I started like my first responsibilities were, uh, preparing our uh we call them our digital worship experiences. Like we weren't a live streaming church, and so, um, we, we were doing that. So I was like my first introduction to the church was through video, um, and then I was preaching sermons to a camera for people that I really had never met, which was just bizarre. And then, so we, we came back to in-person worship later that year and then, at that time, the, the youth pastor, who was on staff when I was hired, had let us know that he was taking a different position, um, at another church, and, and so we just started to like think through what, what are the options here? Um, first of all, hiring a youth pastor is just hard Right.
Speaker 2:And and since I had stepped away, I just felt like, man, I miss that. I was out of the youth ministry game a little bit. I still love to be around students. My mind, I'm just a dreamer, I'm an ideas person and I couldn't stop thinking of ideas for youth ministry or things that I would do. And what I had planned to do was just to share those, like to give those over to the guy here and just say, hey, what if this, and how can I help here and can I be a part of helping serve your ministry in this way? And ultimately, god had been giving me those things because we were going to shuffle kind of our staff deck and reorder some things. Shuffle kind of our staff deck and and reorder some things.
Speaker 2:Um, my brother was on staff, uh, with me in Dallas and just he and his wife knew it was time for them to step away as well. They moved here, uh, shortly after we did, about six months after we did, um, without much of a plan, to be honest. And then, uh, but he's, he's been a worship leader for for 15 years, so he's, uh, he's been a pastor for a long time and and so as, as these doors were opening, it became very clear like here's what God was doing, here's how he was moving these pieces in a way that made sense, in a way that was healthy and good. And and so he's. He's our part-time, uh, worship minister now, um, and I'm I'm doing the youth ministry thing with, with some of those associate responsibilities wrapped up into that. But there's the, there's the short story long on how all that came together.
Speaker 1:When you moved for the associate minister role, did you feel like you were closing the book on youth ministry, like in your mind? Was it like, all right, I'm saying goodbye to this part of myself and probably for the rest of my life I'm going to be doing a different thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean those thoughts were, I mean definitely in my mind. The other things we were thinking about is like full-time preaching ministry, like go be the lead guy somewhere else, and so my mind was calibrated towards like okay, I'm going to be in the adult world, I'm going to be preaching and working, you know, and you know, kind of hands-on in our adult discipleship ministries and those kinds of things. So, yeah, I mean, there was some of that.
Speaker 2:Even to the point where I was getting rid of costumes and Nerf guns and stuff in our move. We're like I'm never going to use this again. And now there's a box of Pop-Tarts back here and I got a closet full of Nerf guns and whatever.
Speaker 1:All the things you need Right. So, psychologically, what if there might not have been? I don't know but, like, what hurdles were there to going back, Like after you've already made the shift in your mind? It's like loved youth ministry. That was so great, Uh, really fruitful time in my life. But I'm looking forward and I think that God has something different for me as I, as I head down the road. So what was it like for you to to use a word you used recalibrate again back into student ministry space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, I guess, because my, I would almost say it if the flow happened the other way, like I felt like I was stepping out and then I just began to notice like I feel drunk, like I feel drawn into youth ministry again.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't know how to explain it other than that yeah, um, and so at the time when our, when our current guy came to us and said, hey, I'm, I'm stepping away, like immediately, I was like, wait a second, god, like what, what is this? Um, and and so I think, and, and so I think, you know, I think, no matter what, it's really it's really healthy to step away, for, you know, if you can get away for a week or you can take a weekend or whatever, I got six months to just step out and be like, okay, catch my breath. There's some really really hard seasons in in Dallas. There's some crazy stuff that happened. There's some stuff we had to walk through with students or adult leaders or whatever, and just like from an emotional toll and people who are listening to this like something popped into your head, I get it.
Speaker 2:You heard me say that Like you get it, to be able to just take a step back for a minute and think and dream a little bit and pray and realize like, oh, god's calling me back into this was just so good. And so when I stepped back in, I had all kinds of ideas, all kinds of things I was fired up about. Now, what was really hard and this is like I don't know how much of this territory we want to get into, but there were, there are, a lot of people, especially in a small town, who have very specific ideas of how things should go. Yeah, and so any kind of disruption, even if it's ultimately positive, is just really tough territory.
Speaker 2:Um, the guy before me was beloved, just as like a pastor. He was great with students, being with them, encouraging them. He had a great pastoral presence. And I'll be honest, brad, a pastoral presence is not my default nature. I am. I think God's gifted me as a leader and a communicator. Yeah, I'm growing, you know.
Speaker 2:I think all of us are called to pastor who are in ministry, and so I'm growing in my pastoral role. But it's not my default nature to just sit with people in their pain. I hate that idea actually. And so my ideas to make shifts were met with resistance, just because I wasn't the guy before me, and that's true for all of us who have stepped into new roles and seats. And so there was a Getting some things off the ground or making some changes first met stripping away some of the things that had just existed. Even to like the youth ministry was still called for 12 students, which was not even the guy before me's idea or the guy before him. It was four youth pastors ago had come up with this idea. It's a very early 2000s approach.
Speaker 1:We all knew when that name was adopted.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and so it's just, you know. And also there's some history in our church that isn't good, especially in the youth ministry world, and I just immediately was like we've got to distance ourselves from that. We've got to get away from people see that logo or hear that term and not all of the connotations are good, and so we need to distance ourselves from that. And so we made, like a I don't like term, a whole lot, but like we made, we made a brand shift, um, to to get away from some of that baggage and to reinvent the idea. There was also some stuff where, like man, that coming out of covid, there hadn't been a lot of church life in general, uh, you know, no, no, gathering, no, uh, development, no, uh, development of new, uh leaders or volunteers or anything like that. And so they're. Just, there was not a whole lot of uh, a youth ministry skeleton. To begin with.
Speaker 2:Everyone thought the one that had existed would come right back into play and I just felt like God was calling us to do something different. Um, and it down to, like you know, at the time there was that that I had jumped in. There was four other adults who are participating in youth ministry. Um, and I was like man this if I'm going to do anything, it's going to be getting way more adults in our church involved in this, and so now we have 24. That's great, and it's like that has been the thing I felt.
Speaker 2:More than anything that God was calling me to do is to develop other people. I mean, this is Ephesians 4. This is what I think my job is. It's the work of the minister to empower and equip the saints to do the work of ministry. Ultimately, what I want to be true is I could die tomorrow, and everything that's going to happen tonight can happen next week, because people are empowered to do it. They all know how to lead and to pastor their group of 10 or 12 students that they meet with every night, and so there was a lot of resistance at first, and then some of these things began to find their footing, and now there's just a lot of momentum, which has been really cool to see how.
Speaker 1:God's worked through all of that, um, okay, however, uh, I have taken up too much of your time, but I do want to ask you this I want to have one more conversation and I want to make sure we have time for one more conversation, which is how so you got? It's funny because it you're talking about that time that you were an associate pastor, almost like people talk about a sabbatical even though you were working, Um, uh, and I think it's really cool that you were able to have that time.
Speaker 1:I want to know how you are a different youth pastor now than you were on the other side of that time. You know what I mean. How did that time like change you? Um, from a philosophy standpoint, from whatever it is like, what's different now than was before?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I would say just in in general, not just from that time, but but the last few years um, I have learned a lot more about myself. Um, and and some of that is, there was a time in my life where I ran from God's calling in my life, um, and that happened in a few different ways. One is when I first went to Bible college. I said, God, I'll do the youth ministry thing, love the idea of playing video games and pizza, but I'm never going to preach, so don't ask me to do it, don't want to take any preaching classes, I don't want to do that. That scares me. Then there was a season where I left school altogether and thought I'm not doing this, I want to be a part of that.
Speaker 2:There's been different seasons where it's like I've run from God's call and in this last few years, especially in this move and in that, you know, pseudo sabbatical time, I've learned who God has made me to be and I I've also learned that it's okay to be confident in who God's made me to be. You know, we taught we, we talked about this or we started this conversation talking about insecurity. Yeah, and there's a difference between insecurity and humility. Right Of insecurity would say, ooh, I don't know if I could do that, and ultimately what you're saying is, um, I don't trust God to do that through me. Um, humility says, um, I am not, but I know I am right To borrow the phrase from Louis Giglio like, no, I can't do this, but I know the God who can do this if I'm just willing to put myself in his hands. And so I would say that season of stepping out of youth ministry was just a process to reflect and to ask some clarifying questions of who has God made me to be?
Speaker 2:And then what I realized is what God has gifted me to do should be a language that speaks in any context, whether I'm an associate, whether I'm a youth minister, whether I'm doing, you know, serving the ministry of CIY in some capacity. God's equipped me to do some specific things, and, you know, one of the things that Andy Stanley says is only do what only you can do. And I wanted to just double down on my strengths, which I think is leadership, development and communication. And so what I stepped back into youth ministry thinking more about was again how do I develop and equip other adults to do the work of youth ministry? I loved the late night nerf battles at church, right. I love hanging out with students, having them over to watch a movie or playing video games or whatever like all just the fun stuff. Those are great, but ultimately those are not needle movers.
Speaker 2:What has moved the needle is when I can help another adult see the way God has gifted them, to believe that God's gifted them, to use that to serve students and then to watch students be served in that, and that has done more in terms of building momentum in ministry than anything else.
Speaker 2:So what I believe my job is I try to be as pastoral and personal with students as I can be. I want to give them high fives, I want to ask them questions, I want to engage with them, I want them to feel like I know them and care about them because I, because I do. But more than that, I want my adult leaders to walk in the room embodying that same kind of presence and that and that creates a culture that is is not replicable otherwise. And and so in that season I learned a lot about leadership. I read a lot more about leadership and and personal growth and development, and then I just tried to attack youth ministry in that idea of man. I want to build leaders um who can leverage their lives to serve students and and grow God's kingdom in the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that you tied it back to the conversation we were having earlier. But the conversation we were having earlier, I think one of the best things you said was that question that you encourage people to pose to themselves, like who wins, who wins?
Speaker 1:if you're grumpy, who wins if you're cynical? A lot of youth pastors, a lot of people who are listening to this, will not have the luxury of being able to step away from youth ministry for six months and then come back in. So, from the perspective that you've gained, you know what questions do you feel like youth pastors should be asking themselves in order to be able to see kind of the benefit of what you've been able to see, but without the luxury of being able to kind of walk that same road?
Speaker 1:Because, a lot of us can't. You know what I mean, and I don't think you even chose that path, but you were being faithful to God in that, and that's. You've seen really cool fruit from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what questions I would say. The first one is this what has God made you to do? Now, we all have like we're all youth ministers, right, but there's something God has made you to do. What is the thing only you can do?
Speaker 2:It's probably not a job title right, like so, double down on your strengths, whatever those things are, and then delegate your weakness. That's, that's the thing that I learned. Um, I have a lot of weaknesses. I'm not I. I am a. I'm a direction person. I'm not a details person. I don't. I don't know if I'm a, if I'm a Microsoft, uh, application, I'm a, I'm a document. I'm not a spreadsheet I like, and so what is the thing that God's made you to do? And then, how do you delegate your weakness? Um, use your strength to serve the church.
Speaker 2:The second thing I would say is what? No, who is in your church right now, who should be your partner in ministry, who you've not yet built a bridge with yet? And so there's a lot of the temptation in youth ministry is to roll out of bed and do it right, like I think almost all of us listening right now it's a Wednesday that we're recording this. We could probably roll out of bed, pull something out of our rear end and do a youth group night on a Wednesday night, and kids would have fun and and they they might even, you know, respond to Jesus and and and that's, that's awesome. But what if you began to walk into your church on a Sunday morning and ask God who in this room can help serve students in ways that I can't and who would actually be served by stepping into this ministry with me. Like there's two sides of the same coin. Students are going to win when other adults in your church step into their lives, but adults are going to win as they step into the lives of students. There's something that God does in us, as he works through us, that grows the entire church, and so I think those are the two questions, right. What has God made you to do? And then, who has God put in your path that you need to be tapping them on the shoulder and saying, hey, I see this in you and I think this is really important. This is a hill I will die on. This is my soapbox.
Speaker 2:Right, that whenever you want people to be involved in something, you don't get up on stage and broadcast it. Hey, I need four people with a pulse to come throw dodgeballs at kids. We think that sounds like a fun, good announcement and anybody can do it. Don't do that. Walk up to somebody and say, man, I've seen the way that you lead your family. We need better leadership in our youth group.
Speaker 2:I need a man who has the ability to not be impressive but to make an impression on young men, and I see that in you. Would you come serve students? I don't need you to do anything different than just be you. Come make an impression on young men, and I see that in you. Would you come serve students? I don't need you to do anything different than just be you Come make an impression on the young men that gather with us every Wednesday night. People respond to that kind of call when you identify the thing in them that God's given them and say this is how you steward it for the benefit of our church and the kingdom. Yeah, I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:That's great, man. I can see people asking themselves those questions and answering those questions and feeling a sense of a revitalized passion for ministry. Just, I mean there's so much freedom in answering those questions. Just I mean there's so much freedom in in answering those questions, um, there's so much like ego that you can let go of, there's so much self that you can let go of when you're compensating for your weaknesses, when you're delegating to other people, when you're inviting other people into, into partnership in your ministry. And I just, yeah, I felt a sense of like rest and peace as you were saying some of those things, and I hope other people did too, and I'm super grateful for you, super grateful for your ministry out there, and thankful that you were able to be here and spend some time with us today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, brad. I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1:I said this to Joel off mic and I'm going to say it to you guys now. That was kind of a hard conversation for me because I relate to so much of what Joel was saying. I know that kind of a hard conversation for me, um, because I relate to so much of what Joel was saying. I know that kind of inferiority complex. I know that can lead to us, um, kind of falling into that comparison trap. I can know that that can lead to us, uh, like internally, kind of stacking ourselves up against other people in our lives and that's not healthy, it's not good, it's not from Christ at all in any way. And I am so, so grateful that Joel was able to kind of speak that truth into my life today. I hope that that was good for you to hear as well. I am going to read our blessing over life today. I hope that that was good for you to hear as well. I am going to read our blessing over you today. May God show you grace and bless you. May he make his face shine on you. May you experience the love of Christ, through whom God gives you fullness of life. May you be strengthened by his power. May Christ himself make his home in your heart, that you would be full of his love and grace and that those you serve would see Jesus in you.
Speaker 1:Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, lauren Bryan and myself. Huge thank you to Joel for being here, for being vulnerable, for being willing to share with us about some tough things, and thank you also for tuning in and listening If you liked what you heard. Be sure to subscribe to be on the event. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we're going to be back one last time for season three in two weeks, so be sure not to miss that. In the meantime, you can reach out to us on the CYY community Facebook group or by email at podcastcyycom. See you next time, thank you.