Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
Bringing together influential voices from the CIY community to walk alongside you in your journey to maintain momentum between the mountaintop experiences of youth ministry.
Beyond the Event: A Youth Ministry Podcast
BTE3.16: Addressing Hot Button Issues in Ministry with Matthew McBirth
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Hello, this is Brad Warren and you are listening to Beyond the Event, a youth ministry podcast presented by Christ in Youth, where we help you maintain momentum between the mountaintops. I've got a really, really interesting conversation lined up for you today. It's one that is challenging, it's one that we get asked to talk about quite a bit, and it has to do with how we navigate different hot button or challenging issues in youth ministry. The bottom line is, no matter how you feel about LGBTQ issues, there are people that you serve who are affirming of people who are part of that community and there are people in your community who are not affirming of people who are part of that community. And no matter how you feel about abortion, there are people you serve who are pro-choice and there are people you serve who are pro-life. And no matter how you feel about race relations, there are people you serve who think that we are in a good place with race relations in this country and there are people you serve who think we are in a bad place with race relations in this country and those issues have become kind of identity markers for people and that's unfortunate. But we need to have a conversation about what it looks like to navigate some of those issues in a way that is truthful, in a way that is full of truth, but also in a way that is full of grace, and so we're going to talk to Matthew McBirth about that.
Speaker 1:He is super duper qualified to speak into these issues. He lives in Joplin, here with us. He's the director of multicultural affairs at Ozark Christian College and he also serves as a professor of Bible and ministry there. He's working on his PhD in New Testament. I only tell you that so that you know that he's smarter than me, but Matthew is a really thoughtful, well-studied man who will have a lot of great things to say about an issue that is really, really challenging for a lot of people. And that's how do we talk about things that are controversial in a way that honors Jesus. So let's head over to my conversation with Matthew. Matthew McBirth almost Dr Matthew McBirth- Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:Glad to be here. Thanks, Brad. One year left, hopefully, god willing, one year left.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thank you in your very rigorous schedule, I'm sure, for making time to be here with us today. It's super cool. A lot of people might not know you yet. People who are familiar with the Ozark Christian College world may, listening to this podcast, will know you after this summer, which is exciting for me because you're going to be teaching at MOVE. Oh no, you're not.
Speaker 2:I'm not, I thought you were. I told Lane no, actually for this summer, so I don't know if you want to start over Jokes on?
Speaker 1:No, I don't. I want everybody to know what they're missing out on.
Speaker 2:Joke's on me Because of that almost doctorate, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So we see how this is throwing a wrench in everybody's system. Yes, yes, yes so maybe sometime in the future you'll get to meet Matthew McBirth and you'll look back on this conversation fondly, yes, and remember all of the wonderful things that you heard from him.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I was just talking to him and he was like not that long ago. When did you tell him no?
Speaker 2:it was like a month ago, I think Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I must've been talking to him like five weeks ago and he was so excited.
Speaker 2:He was like yeah.
Speaker 1:Matthew McBurth. It's going to be so great I felt terrible. Well yeah, don't feel bad, man. You're told him you got a lot going on I'll.
Speaker 2:Life is all about balance and I applaud you for making that choice. So you'll be working on able to be this weird group of Jews and Gentiles, and yet they see each other as family. It seems that hospitality was the language and practices that they used to figure that out, and I'm trying to recapture that for the church today. So how can we practice hospitality corporately within our churches, within our local communities, and truly be a people that's unified even in the midst of diversity? So, yeah, that's been a lot of fun studying that over the last few years.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Excited to be able to make that paper well, I my simple mind you can correct me if I'm wrong see a very logical connection between, uh, what you're describing and kind of what we're talking about today, which is hard things to talk about. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:So there, I mean, pick your poison right there are a billion hot button issues out there, and I say that and one popped into everybody who is listening to this mind, and I don't know what that one is, but it might be abortion, it could be how we relate to the LGBT community, it could be race relations, it could be a trillion things Right, but there are all of these kind of like identity politics issues where you know, in our circles maybe pro-life good, pro-choice bad, and you are defined by the way that you kind of answer that question. So I want to talk to you about how we address, not about the issues themselves Everybody who's listening probably has their theology nailed down of any given issue but more, how do we pastor people who might not or who might disagree with us? So the reason that I wanted to talk to you about this is because Ozark Christian College, where you work, does a really cool thing that I got to interact with a little bit called Mosaic.
Speaker 2:Lunches.
Speaker 1:And I want you to just kind of cast the vision for what Mosaic Lunches are.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is something that we started when I got hired on there, so 2016 would have been the first semester that we started doing these things called Mosaic Lunches. So the idea is this Most often, whenever we're having these conversations about these political topics or cultural topics like race or sexuality, identity, it is usually not a conversation. It is usually social media, which is not a good place for conversation, or it's someone being taught at, being lectured to on where they stand. And we said how about we actually sit down at tables and talk about these hot topics and actually believe that we can remain unified in Christ and hear differences between one another? And so that was the idea.
Speaker 2:And so, starting off in 2016, talking about things, if you remember, at that time, black Lives Matter was on its way up and that ended up being one of the first conversations that we ended up having is what is Black Lives Matter? What is this rhetoric of all lives matter and just saying let's try to understand both sides and can we be charitable and can we be also critical and be able to hear each other out really believing that we can stay unified in Jesus? And so we see that happening in the New Testament church and so we wanted to try to do that with 18 to 22 year olds and been doing it ever since and it's been going up pretty well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. You used a word that I want to have you hone in on a little bit, which is the word charitable. I think there's a thing that pops into people's head when they hear that word.
Speaker 2:What do you mean when you say?
Speaker 1:like. Can we be charitable to each other?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So when I say charitable, I mean trying to find reasons to give a positive comment on the other side. So, instead of immediately thinking everything this person believes about this topic is wrong, we go into it with the assumption that actually it's probably going to be a mixed bag. A mixed bag they probably have some things that are wrong because we're humans, but they also probably have some things that are biblical and found in the scripture or the person of Jesus, and so we want to actually seek that out.
Speaker 2:I was listening to a sermon recently and the guy said Christians are weird people because we truly believe everyone's made in the image of God and we can state that, though we hear that all the time.
Speaker 2:But he said you actually have to believe it and then see it. And that is very counter to our world, especially with these identity politics that we want to be able to put people into boxes and label it and therefore we don't have to deal with it anymore of boxes and label it and therefore we don't have to deal with it anymore. And so when I say charitable, I mean I want to look for something that I can say, yeah, that sounds like image of God-beariness, that sounds biblical to me, that sounds like love or justice or whatever it might be. And then, keeping that critical piece in mind too, that doesn't mean that everything's good about it either, and so what normally happens is one group might be doing this, but the other group is not doing it as well, and so if no one's going to do it for me, then I put up a wall and I'm not going to do it for them either.
Speaker 2:So, it creates just these walls and it creates just lectures.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you have to come to the table together Exactly In order for it to bear any fruit.
Speaker 2:And that's what I love about the Mosaic Lunch is it is round tables. Again, we're working with students, and so they've been in class all morning. They have been in the sit in front of the sometimes the stage, on the stage model where they've just been, you know, lectured to on things that are really important for them to know that they don't have a lot of information on. But to be in class for hours and then go to another lecture is not going to work, and so we said we are going to do it in a space that has round tables and actually have conversation with people who are on quote unquote the stage, but also with people at the table, and so it ends up being helpful.
Speaker 2:And over the years, I have seen how some have come in with a view. They sat down at a table with someone with the opposite view and they walked out saying I never saw it that way before. I now understand why someone could be on that side. The issue was on immigration and this guy came in and the student that was also there is a second generation immigrant, and so for him to be able to hear his story, to see where he's coming from, from, doesn't mean that he's in complete agreement, even. But it made more sense of why someone might be on that side, would you say?
Speaker 1:that it. Is it possible for somebody to engage the way that you're talking about and not change their mind at all? Like, is it just a disposition thing, or is it? Do you think it kind of has to be accompanied by this intellectual exercise where you are willing to kind of not be a slave to your beliefs in some sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the person has to come into it with. I want to know what truth is.
Speaker 2:Yeah okay and therefore saying I don't have all the right answers. So there has to be some humility in the room. If you come into a saying I'm just here to fight and be right about this, and yeah, I'll hear their side, but just so I can use it as ammo, right To oh, I've heard that reason. Now I can think of a counter to that, so I'm ready for the next fight. That's a totally different category. That's a totally different category. That's a totally different arena that we're talking about with the round tables, and I mean the one that we just talked about. That's a boxing arena, right, and there's times for that, for things like that, with debates, right, but that should not be our usual. That should not be our normal at all. But this is the reason why debates don't change people's minds, right? Hopefully it's okay for me to say this.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're about to come up on maybe a series of debates when it comes to who's going to be the next president of the United States at this time, and has anyone ever walked into listening to a debate against candidates and walked out being like, oh, I've changed my mind and I'm going to be for that person? Usually not they come in with. This is where I'm at and that's because what debates do it just furthers where you stand at. So I think to your point, brad, humility has to be key. With it, you come into it saying I am willing to hear where I might be wrong and to give in on that, but also be willing to say and this is sometimes even a harder thing be willing to say brother or sister in Christ. This is where I see, maybe where you're wrong. Right, the hardest part is making sure what is the standard that we are comparing these things with. And often the standard is my thinking, it's my presuppositions, it's my culture. Instead of it, jesus and scripture so, yeah, yeah, so you.
Speaker 1:The words charity and critique, critique kind of opposite sides of the spectrum, remind me of two other words grace and truth. Exactly, um is that? Is that applicable to this conversation? You being an academic? Oh yeah, it feels like it is, but I want to make sure it is before we continue to talk.
Speaker 2:It has to be in the sense of, yeah, and I would say, even in the realms of talking about theology, jesus does not allow us to be only about one of those things and certain aspects of our lives, only about one of those things and certain aspects of our lives, and that includes our thinking. And so I have thought through my theology on certain things. But I'm not just seeking the truth, I'm also seeking it through the lens of grace, right, and so I want to hold both of those in mind. Yeah, so totally going to be apparent, and you just notice when someone goes away from one of those where they end up leading to.
Speaker 2:A passage that comes to my mind is Revelation 3, I believe it is maybe 2, where Jesus is talking to the church in Ephesus, and this seems to be a group of Christians who know the truth, and yet he says to them you are lacking something. He doesn't use the word grace, but he uses the word this you lack. You've forgotten your first love. And the consequence that he says is, if you do not find this first love is, I will remove my presence from you. So I think it's for both sides. Those who lean a little bit more towards the truth side need to hear that, in the sense of love and grace, is part of the gospel and how Jesus approaches us. For those who lean towards more the grace side and lack of truth, jesus has a word for them too. He says if you war against truth, you end up warring against the Holy Spirit, and so the sword of the Spirit will come. So I definitely think both of those are there.
Speaker 1:But even as you're describing that, I'm seeing like two sides of a spectrum and somebody being like pulled between the ends of a spectrum. Like don't go too far that way. Come back over here, Don't go too far that way Come back over here, but that's not what it is Like. Jesus came full of grace and full of truth. And, boy, that gives me anxiety. I'm not going to lie to you, it's hard, yeah, oh, like, okay, well, we're going to move on from that now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's a difficult thing to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, it really is.
Speaker 1:So I want to talk about the meat of this conversation, I really think is that there's a practical ministry side to all of this. There are youth pastors out there who have kids in their youth group who I mean a middle school or high school student has not fully fleshed out their theology on any issue, right, fleshed out their theology on any issue, right. But a lot of them come from pro fill in the blank families and opposite of that issue, families, right? You've got kids in your youth ministry who come from pro-life backgrounds, from pro-choice backgrounds, from affirming backgrounds, from non-affirming backgrounds, whatever it may be, and you have got to have conversations with all these people. You've got to stand up on a stage and teach these people in a way that is full of grace and truth.
Speaker 1:So that's what I kind of want to talk to you about is like, if you're sitting in the seat of a minister and it's like these issues sitting in the seat of a minister, yeah, and it's like these issues, they're such loud voices in our culture and it might not even be what you really want to talk about, yeah, but they're there and I just don't know. I mean, I'm not. I'm going to stop making sense because I just don't even know, like how you're supposed to wade into those waters.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. Here's my thinking with it. First, I want to say this youth pastors have to be one of the best theologians. You know if you're a youth pastor, like you have a hard task. You know you have to talk about biblical truths with accuracy to a generation that is younger than you so there's a cross-cultural dynamic there and be able to make sense to them. So it is not at all an easy thing to do, and yet, if you're a youth pastor, this is what you're doing on a regular basis. So let me start with this. I do really think it starts in two areas or maybe it pertains to two areas that we can say this there is the area of hard chair work, of doing the research, doing the study, and then there's the area of lives.
Speaker 2:You are interacting with people and I find and that might be, maybe I don't even know this idea of grace and truth. Don't want to say that only truth is in the hard share and the grace is in the relationships. I think it's in both right. But if we can just say I find that if you are interacting with people who have a different, opposing view than your own, if you're interacting with them not a sense of debate, but just rubbing shoulders with them, living life, you have them over for dinner, you go to the same ballgames, whatever it might be, that just changes how you approach the conversation. It doesn't mean it changes your theology.
Speaker 2:That is a danger. I think we should just admit. That is a danger that we wade into when we do rub shoulders with people, that we end up loving them and that our minds could change because we love this person so much. That's where the truth really does still matter and you have to be grounded in that. But we need to actually love on people and if my friendships are only people who agree with me, then it's going to be very difficult to be able to say what I believe, even if it's truthful. It's going to be hard to say that with love it's gonna be hard to say that with love.
Speaker 1:So because, like, yeah, the the other side, anybody who falls into that camp, yeah, becomes defined by that thing, whatever, it is right exactly, and I say ultimately, we play a game.
Speaker 2:Um, we've been living in a world where, um you know, the marvel cinematic universe of promises matters. Mcu, you're speaking.
Speaker 1:Producer michael's language. Right now we live in a the Marvel Cinematic Universe of Promises Matters, mcu.
Speaker 2:You're speaking producer Michael's language. Right now, we live in a MCU imagination. Everything is heroes and villains. Every Marvel movie has a clear villain and has the clear hero. Now, do sometimes those heroes mess up?
Speaker 2:Sometimes you have some compassion for the villain maybe a little bit, but honestly, that's kind of. In the more later movies it's kind of clear that I don't want to be for a guy that takes people's eyes out. You know, like Loki in Avengers, I'm not for that. You know when. When you know Black Panther and Eric Killmonger, oh okay, I can kind of see how he got to where he got. Regardless of, though, we have been set up to see the world as who's the hero, who's the villain. That's fun with fiction. That's not how life operates, and so what we end up doing is opposing side. They're the villains, and I'm on the hero side, and so I got to do anything to be able to win and to protect the people I'm over. And when it comes to the gospel, it does operate in heroes and villains, but it's on a way bigger scale, in the sense of the one hero is actually not me, no, it's actually Jesus, yeah, so thank God.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly yeah, he's the hero, and the villain is not the religious leaders that he's interacting with. The villains are not the disciples who doubt. The villains are actually, you know, demons, death, satan. It's darkness that you see him constantly warring against.
Speaker 2:And so I think, if we can just stop with this categorizing of people with their ideas of you know, if you oppose me, you're therefore on the villain side, and we don't say it in Heroes and Villains. We say left and right. Now there's one way of saying they are left-leaning or they are very much on the left, and we can be honest about that. But when we say that, do we use it as a dismissal? Yeah, they're on the left, so I don't have to worry about their thoughts, their thinking. They're the villains. I just have to win this battle. So you're totally right in the sense of the opposing sides, and we put a label on them, and I think it's because of these heroes and villains that we've grown up with. So we need to rub shoulders with people and truly love them, not just as a way to grow in grace.
Speaker 2:Study side we do our homework right. We actually want to search the scriptures, we want to hear from and even in doing our homework and studying these things, we see what the opposing side is saying and once again, we're trying to go into it. This is a human being who thinks something for a reason I want to figure out, instead of making a straw man out of them. So that would be my two big things. I'll tell them is do the hard chair work, do the study, but also, of course, engage with people at the table in your room, in your living room, in the dining room, in your kitchen or just in your neighborhood, and see what happens through that process, which youth ministers probably have the opportunity to do more than just about anybody else who works for a church.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, yes, because kids are bringing their friends all the time. You're going to football games all the time. This, that and the other, like you can do this.
Speaker 2:Yes, going to football games all the time. This, that and the other. You can do this, and I think there's some bit of this. I think we come into it wondering what the other side might think of me, right, well, once they hear I'm a Christian, they're going to make some assumptions. That's very true they might. There's a pastor named Brian Loritz who I like a lot of his works that he's done, great preacher, and he has a book called Insider Outsider, and it's a different conversation.
Speaker 1:I've seen that movie. No, I'm kidding, that's good. The sequel's coming out.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah exactly Anxiety and, yes, all these things are going to come up and whatever her name is. Anyway, he talks about how his neighbors, um was, was, was a um or is a lesbian couple, or at least I guess was this whenever he was living in California. He's known he's no longer there and um had a pretty good relationship. Um with his neighbors went over for dinner and then they announced that they were going to get married. So he's a pastor and they announced this at the dinner table we're getting married. Now you know. His mind immediately goes to are they going to ask me to?
Speaker 1:be the official.
Speaker 2:And so he gets nervous, they tell his whole demeanor changes in that moment and probably about five minutes into after saying that, one of the ladies just says Brian, what's wrong? And he starts I'm happy that you all are happy about this, but you all know I'm a pastor and this is where I'm at, where my church is at and where I think scripture lies. And they just said, Brian, we were never going to ask you to do officiating and we were never going to put you in that position. We know where you're at on this. We love you though, Right. So I do think there's this like again. I think we go into it thinking they're going to immediately think I'm the villain, Right, and they might. But I think we've got to counter that. We've got to say, if it doesn't operate in heroes and villains, like, we just need to start acting like I'm not the villain in this story, right, and they're not the villain in the story. I'm also not the hero in the story and they're not the hero in the story.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so a lot of what you're talking about is really relational and I love that, like I love the idea of being in relationship with people who hold opposing viewpoints up to you. I think it's important in every aspect of life um. There's one area where I'm struggling to see how this relates, and that's when a youth pastor has to get up on a stage and teach about something because you kind of lose the relational component when you walk out on a stage.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Now I don't think there are a lot of youth ministries out there who are doing series on race relations or whatever, you know what I mean. It would be a five-part series, but also, if you're being true to scripture, you are going to cross areas that talk about life and what that means, and to talk about sexuality and whatever. So how do you take all of this stuff and apply it to like teaching? Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So a few thoughts on it. Let me give the one that's most important and if I forget it, the other one, it's fine, because it's lesser important. It was of less importance. If I forget the other one, it's fine because it's of less importance. When it comes to the study, I often get up and give a sermon or a lesson on stuff like this.
Speaker 2:The way you know that you're prepared is not just that you've done the exegetical work and you found this is what the text seems to be saying, but you have done so much work in looking at the text through the other lens that the opposing side is thinking and you're just trying to see how they could have got where they got right. So you look at the text with that different interpretation and be able to say, oh, when I come into it with this presupposition, I can see how this text seems to be saying that now, right Doesn't mean it's right, right, so I can see that and that will prepare you to be able to talk about it better. Right, which means you are studying. This is where it gets difficult. This means you do listen to the voices that do take the opposing side. You do hear where they are at A pastor within the Christian church movement, caleb Kaltenbach, pastor out in California at Shepherd.
Speaker 2:I believe, written a book called Messy Grace. He is good friends, I have heard While he was in the same building a fellow faculty member said this and he didn't deny it. Okay, so there we go. He is at least in contact with in a text messaging relationship with Matthew Vines. And Matthew Vines is totally of the affirming side when it comes to sexuality that the Bible is affirming. When it comes to marriage of lesbians and gay marriages, he has that relationship with him. He studies what Matthew Vines does, right, so he can actually see this is where he comes from.
Speaker 2:Now it doesn't mean you need to go and get a relationship with Matthew Vines. Okay, good luck with that if you don't interact with him. But are you studying how Matthew Vines gets where he gets? Gets that way when you get up on the stage, you've done your homework and you saw it from that perspective. I think it changes how you therefore talk about it. So that's the first thing of importance. Second thing of importance, and that's of lesser importance do you lose the relationship in the sense of it's no longer a dialogue? You certainly do. If you're preaching it from stage, maybe that's kind of a bad thing with how we preach. It doesn't mean it can't be a dialogue, right Actually, with the person preaching and then allowing for audience participation. Especially on topics like this, it might be a good idea to do that very thing. Questions, pushbacks, thoughts on this. I want to study the text with you. All right, that actually allows for people's walls to go down, right? Oh, the preacher's actually wanting to hear how I'm going to respond to what he or she just said. Okay, this changes it. Secondly, if you actually have been doing that hard work of relationship building, you don't lose the relational capital, right, you bring that up there with you. I have talked to the students in the room who actually side with that side, and the same thing with the relationship that Brian Lewis talks about. They already know where I'm at, they know my heart, so that relational capital doesn't go away. So you've built that and so you're taking that up there with you. I'll say this last thing and then I'll show up for a little bit here.
Speaker 2:I find this with training students to study the Bible and I've just seen this in my years of following Christ we do a good job of teaching people to study the Bible by themselves. We do not do a good job of teaching people how to study the Bible communally, and so the moment that it finally becomes community is when we teach or preach. But no, it should be the entire process that I'm studying this with people and we kind of do it communally when we're reading commentaries or looking up videos. But we should be saying, if I'm going to preach on something for my local church and we're doing it with history and in the community, I better be talking with people in the community or in my location about this very thing to hear their thoughts on it. So it's the same thing with any of these topics Study the text in community. I think you're going to be able to bring that out more when it comes to your lessons. Yeah, in community.
Speaker 1:I think you're going to be able to bring that out more when it comes to your lessons. Yeah, it's funny because you were talking about how we don't really have to lose that relational aspect in a sermon. It's harder work to make a sermon a conversation, but one of the most profound memories that I have of something like this is, after the killing of George Floyd, you and your father-in-law, mark Scott, getting on stage at College Heights and having a conversation Like hey, well, the people who are listening to this can't see you, you are black and your father-in-law is white.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And for you guys to be able to stand on stage and say, hey, this is where scripture actually, you know, is in all of this, I think was like a really big deal. What do you remember about that experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of it's. It's fascinating. First of all, yeah, that was my first time preaching with my father-in-law. I guess it was actually my only time. But we did preach that sermon three times, twice at college heights and then once for another church that heard it, so we did it there, so I guess four times. We had two services, and so it was a very enjoyable time. First time ever co-preaching, which, if anyone's ever preached before preaching by itself, it's hard enough. Having to preach with someone else is even more difficult.
Speaker 2:But my father-in-law is an amazing preacher, so it did not feel that way at all, though it did not feel that way at all. So what I remember from that was 90% of it was well-received, in the sense of 90% of the congregation, I think, received it well, being able to hear some of my stories, my feedback or stories that I heard from other people in the congregation, being able to bring that into it. There was actually some negative stuff from it and I think I don't know. I say this in the sense of we learned from that that there were some things that we said that it did put some people as if we were putting them into a box right. That came up when we were talking about police officers and we have police officers in our congregation, and so we heard that.
Speaker 2:We actually heard that, we received that and we got some flack for that. I think we were able to say what we said was still true, but nevertheless we heard what they said. The next time we preached it we maneuvered, not in the sense of we went away from it, but we I don't know we said it better, we're more careful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's even what I'm thinking about with that dialogical approach that my father-in-law and I actually had to have dialogue before we ever preached this and, of course, got up there to do it. Then we got feedback and we're able to make it even better and get the truth out and get the love out with that. So, no, it was a really great time, but I do remember the negative feedback and learning from it, and so that's part of what I want to say is, I think sometimes we get fearful of talking about these things because of what the backlash might be, especially depending on where you side on this. If you do actually do the biblical like let's just be honest you might do the biblical study, you might go through all the rules that you've set up to study scripture well, and it will result in against the majority result in against the majority, right, it actually goes against what your congregation lands at.
Speaker 2:So then you have to think about am I going to preach the truth or am I going to cave to it? Right, and am I going to be a prophet in this moment, or am I just going to be, honestly, just a false prophet? Right, and so that's a really difficult moment to put yourself in, but I would say we're going to go, of course with being the prophet, telling the truth. This is what the text says, out of love and allowing for dialogue to build from that, and so I know this goes against our regular preaching styles. I was taught how to preach from amazing communicators.
Speaker 1:Like Mark Scott.
Speaker 2:Being one of them, right, but I think we have to push against this. And this is kind of going back to the Mosaic Lunch, brad, something that you all did you and Morgan was you asked questions and heard people's thoughts and then were able to give some more information to help with a better framing of how to approach the topic. And I think, when it comes to these topics, maybe we just need to say let's approach this a little bit differently, knowing that it's a little bit more touchy because of just our culture, because it is so much a tie to identity and sometimes some people put this part of their identity bigger than their identity in Christ and, regardless of that, they shouldn't do that. They're doing it, and so we have to just come into a thinking. This is going to be a little bit different, but I think if we allow for dialogue, we can be more clear, so we get the truth out and we can be received better.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot there. No, I love it. So this is a lot to chew on, but I do have one more youth pastor that I want to talk about. Cool Youth pastor, archetype um, which is.
Speaker 2:What is this person's name?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um, Michael Hester Just kidding Um so hypothetical, hypothetically, the youth pastor at first Christian church no yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um no, but there are. There are youth pastors out there who are like none of that stuff has anything to do with the gospel. Like I can preach that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, that Jesus came, lived a perfect life, died a sinner's death for my sake, rose again to newness of life and ascended into heaven so that I could be with the Father forever, without ever talking about any of that stuff. So why would I wade into these waters?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Honestly, I like the question and part of me just wanted to be like yeah.
Speaker 2:But the caveat is, yeah, if you preach about the gospel in its fullness, you should touch on these things. That gospel doesn't just deal with the spiritual, it deals with the physical as well, and so part of it is to say amen to that. But it's your definition of the gospel, right. Is the gospel simply just about eternal life after you die, or is it about eternal life right now? Right, and that starts with knowing Jesus right now and experiencing that abundance. And so I would push back against that thinking of saying maybe we have limited the gospel in saying it's only about afterlife, it's only about a spiritual connection.
Speaker 2:I think God made us embodied on purpose and therefore we are put into a context, that we are put into bodies that have certain skin tones. And yes, is racism something of the world? Most definitely, but now we deal with it because we're of this or we are in this world, and so therefore, the gospel talks about those things. And how do I know the gospel talks about those things? Is because it literally shows up all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament. And so if Paul had that same, you know disposition, then all we really need is 1 Corinthians 15, you know, that's all we need.
Speaker 2:This is what I attested to you. Jesus died, he was buried. He raised again. Peter saw him, other disciples saw him, then a hundred people saw him. He ascended. We have the spirit. You know.
Speaker 2:1 Corinthians 15 would cover all of that, right. All we would need is, you know, a 2 Timothy I think it's chapter 2 or something like this and he just says remember what I preached to you. Jesus, son of David, died, resurrected the Messiah. This is my gospel, right? He has to actually talk about and open up Romans 1 of talking about sexuality and idol worship. He actually has to talk about Gentile and Jewish conflict. He does have to talk about masters and slaves. He does have to talk about what can men and women do and what's their relationship post-Jesus' resurrection. And so I mean same thing with Jesus that he meets people where they're at and he finds ways to tell the gospel and how the gospel actually is going to be portrayed in that particular moment in that person's life. So there's kind of a lot there.
Speaker 2:I would say one we need to actually believe the gospel touches every part of life. The gospel touches every part of life, every part of life. I had a pastor told me, what did sin do in Genesis 3? It impacted everything. Everything is impacted because of sin, and we all know that. So what does the gospel do? It impacts every single part of life.
Speaker 2:So often we are limiting the gospel. Secondly, if we truly love our neighbors, we are meeting them where they're at. Is this issue as big of a deal as they're making out to be? Sometimes it shouldn't be, but it's a big deal to them. I love them. Therefore, it's a big deal to me, right? And so I want to be able to preach the truth and the love of the gospel in that moment, so that Jesus is revealed being more powerful than any of those darknesses in that moment and in that space. So that would be my two-part answer. We need to actually believe the gospel is big and not just a go to heaven type of thing. And then, two, it meets us where we're at and deals with these particular things.
Speaker 2:And we see that we again. We just see the Bible doing this all over the place.
Speaker 1:All the time. Yeah, yeah, I was. The image that popped into my mind is like the woman at the well, jesus, just literally like finds this woman where she is in her shame, walks up to her and has a conversation with her about the thing that she doesn't want to have a conversation about, yes, and walks away, knowing him better.
Speaker 2:Isn't't it? And he doesn't just start by saying I'm the messiah, right, because that's that's what do a good thing, yeah, yeah, like this is like that's the. That is actually the result that she discovers he's the messiah, but that's not how he begins it. Give me some water, yeah, ill, maybe you know well, why are you asking me this. And she brings up very big cultural things. I'm a Samaritan and I'm a woman yeah exactly, you have no business talking to me.
Speaker 2:And Jesus wades into that with her and, of course, the result is she's redeemed, she knows that he's the Messiah. That village comes out to meet him and greet him and welcome him in speaking of hospitality once again. So no, that's a great example of Samaritan woman at the well, that's good.
Speaker 2:I had another one that comes to mind. Oh, I thought of Galatians with Paul and Peter, this conflict that they have. Peter gets, or Paul has to confront Peter on table fellowship with very much about ethnicity, peter on table fellowship with very much about ethnicity. Peter, you seem to go contrary to the gospel because when your Jewish brothers came in, you left hanging out with the Gentiles, right. So he seems to be saying you know what the gospel is, but how you're acting right now, physically, when it comes to this ethnic cultural issue, it seems to be saying you don't know what the gospel is, and so Paul has to bring that up, and of course it pertains be saying you don't know what the gospel is and so Paul has to bring that up, and of course it pertains to what he's going at in that letter. Yeah, wow, okay.
Speaker 1:Taking up a lot of your time. Matthew, I want to ask you one more question, which is I hate this question, so I'm sorry for asking it, but also I feel so ignorant about this a little bit in some ways. But is there anything I'm not asking that I should be asking?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Is there anything you came in here like? Oh yeah, this would be awesome to be able to talk about this, and I'm just too dumb to ask the right questions.
Speaker 2:No, no, I mean to be honest, no. Well, that makes me feel I feel like you asked the right questions and I feel like I got things I, at least you know was most pressing on my heart, my mind, to share.
Speaker 2:um, I just think this, um, so this is a podcast, making a reference to another podcast moment, so we were talking before about every Thought Captive with some colleagues and friends of ours, what I appreciate about that podcast and shout out to it, beginning again. Maybe I don't know if it's going to, but it should right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is our endorsement. We're calling out yeah, yeah yeah, do something, do you know who wrote the music for that podcast? I don't Michael Hester. Oh my, I don't Michael Hester. Oh my, I don't know if they're still using it. Yeah, they are, are they?
Speaker 2:Wow, full circle, full circle, love it. I didn't know that. Something that I appreciate about them is being intellectually rigorous and honest, right, and so we've already gotten at this before. But if I can just double down on it, because here's what I'm thinking, I think because I'm human and there are humans listening to this, I'm just assuming that some people listening to this do the same thing that I do, and that is immediately go to my information and my sources on why I'm right. Confirmation bias, exactly. Yeah, my wife has challenged me on this a lot and hopefully I've grown a little bit in the years that we've been married.
Speaker 2:I love to be right, we all do Love to be right, and sometimes I care more about being right than being righteous. Sometimes I care more about winning an argument than actually even proclaiming the gospel, and so when it comes to these conversations, I just want people to be honest, intellectually honest. Am I just going for confirmation bias? Do I just want to win? Do I just want ammo? And those might be. Sometimes it can be disguised.
Speaker 2:I tell people all the time pride is a very devious thing. It can trick you into thinking you're doing something for the right reasons, but it's all for pride's sake, trick you into thinking you're doing something for the right reasons, but it's all for pride's sake, and so you just need to be honest. Do I just want to be right or do I actually want righteousness to win out here? And so, like I said, to those steps earlier in the sense of hearing from others, interacting with others, truly loving on others. Those might seem like small things and we hear all the time yes, have relationships with people that think differently than you, but there's a reason why we have to keep saying it, snl. Last thing I'll say Brad SNL weird thing had during the 2016 election.
Speaker 2:I believe it was announced that President Trump was going to be president, and then this episode came out, and the episode had a skit called the Bubble, and the Bubble was supposed to be the super inclusive place where everyone, whose different thoughts, can come to the Bubble. I think the Bubble was in Brooklyn actually, and so it just kind of walked through what people did in the Bubble, and so it just kind of walked through what people did in the bubble, and what SNL ultimately satirically pointed out is that we act like we're inclusive and we're really not.
Speaker 1:Because the people that we keep close to us are people who agree with us.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's just the echo chamber going at it and they're like have this engaging, enlightening conversation with people who have different views than your own, and the back and forth is disagreement the entire time.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, yes, exactly yes for sure, and that's what we end up doing. So I just want to say I don't want us just to shove this off and act like, oh yes, okay, I need to have more friends. That's not. It's not just the idea of it. Do you actually believe that we're called to rub shoulders with people and therefore that will change how we approach this? And so that would be my last thing.
Speaker 1:I love it. I think that's a great note to end on. I really appreciate you being here to challenge me and challenge our listeners in this way, and I think you've definitely given us a lot to think about. So thank you Glad to be on here, brad. Thank you, brother, I'm really thankful for almost Dr McAberth there for kind of holding our hand and walking us, walking us down a road of what it looks like to engage with some issues that we, frankly, probably all wish we didn't have to engage with as often as we probably do. Um, but we do, and and I'm grateful for people like Matthew who are willing to kind of wade into those waters and to show us how to wade in those waters uh, in a way that that that honors our calling, in a way that is full of both grace and truth, things that we often see, um, as we kind of talked about, as ends of a spectrum, but really they're not. They're not. Jesus was all grace, jesus was all truth and, as hard as it is, we got to figure out how to live that out. So I'm going to read our blessing over us today. May God show you grace and bless you. May he make his face shine on you. May you experience the love of Christ, through whom God gives you fullness of life. May you be strengthened by his power. May Christ himself make us home in your heart, that you would be full of his love and grace and that those you serve would see Jesus in you.
Speaker 1:Today's episode was produced by Michael Hester, lauren Bryan and me. Thanks so much to matthew mcbirth for being here with us today, and thank you for tuning in and listening if you liked what you heard. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to to catch up with us in two weeks, when we will be back with another brand new episode. In the meantime, you can feel See you next time, Thank you.